death penalty

[Glorious Amok]

an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...

do you believe that living by that addage can only result in a world full of blind people on liquid diets? does murdering to punish a murder leave everyone a murderer? leave everyone murdered?

i think i am actually pro death penalty on pre-meditated homicide. i believe if you have murdered somebody, that you have forfeitted your right to be a member of society. and besides, what are we keeping you around for anyway? it's not like we still need you for something. it's not likely that you're going to come up with the cure for cancer while you're incarcerted for the next 50 years.

is there a better deterrent to homicide rates? it would be obvious to everyone what would happen to you if you did it. i like to believe that a firm death penalty would leave us as a society who knew the innate value of name-calling.

but what do you think? i might be swayed.... L-Rod, i'm sure you'll have some valuable input on this...

[stilltrucking]

if there was absolute justice well maybe
too many innocent people on death row
I would have to be against it.
the legal system is too imperfect to carry out the death penalty I think.

Too late to say "Gee sorry about that, " when the innocent are executed, and it happens a lot I think.

some people are so dangerous it is very tempting to seek a permanent solution.

[Doreen Peri]

Hi K!

Capital punishment is a barbaric practice.

The sole purpose, is not for dissuading crime, but for the satisfaction of the families of crime victims.

It amounts to a public display of murder, nothing less.

It makes me ill.

When the killed Timothy McVeigh, I got sick on my stomach... especially hearing people revel in the deed.

I don't care how many people McVeigh killed. It doesn't matter whether it's a mass murderer being put to death or what the crime was. Under NO circumstances should this practice continue. I wish I had time to work for the cause of eliminating the death penalty entirely. It is barbaric and sickening.

[Glorious Amok]

you both make good points, but i'm not swayed just yet. i think that murder itself, pre-meditated and then concealed, is barbaric and sickening. but i think preservation of a non-violent society is necessary and important.

i think that capital punishment when performed by injection, under the supervision of a doctor, could be seen as a peace-loving act. maybe in our times, with the state of our current prison and justice systems this is not the case, but i think that it's possible.

it couldn't be exacted at every conviction, there are many variables. but what if in a particular case the murder was caught on video, or was witnessed by a number of people... there are cases where guilt is not questioned, merely motive.

but my father was a homicide detective for 30 years, so i may be biased. most of the cases he worked on were not blood-thirsty psychopaths, although there were certainly some of those too, but a lot were just people who made bad choices, the source of their conflict could have been dealt with in less fatal ways. if those people had known, really known that they could not get away with this act, that they would certainly be put to death for taking another's life, a lot of eyes might be blackened, but lives saved.

when i look at it with a long-term perspective, i still see the upside.

[Lightning Rod]

what is this but a couch for a crucifixion?

[Doreen Peri]

There's nothing non-violent or necessary about murder, oGloriousOne.

Murder is murder. Plain and simple.

Whether supervised by a doctor or by a firing squad.

What's peace-loving about it?

Who cares whether the perpetrator was guilty or not?

An eye for an eye? That's just frigging nonsense. It's pre-evolutionary stuff. We have evolved far past that.

Let's just go into Iraq and kill those damn "insurgents" (translation, "citizens" ... because we can't tell who the enemy is in a neo-vietnam-jungle).... Let's do this! Why? Because THEY, whoever THEY are, attacked us and we need to retaliate!

Ok, sure, fine... and the attacks continue.. one tribe against another tribe... each tribe claiming righteousness...

One Murder for One Murder.

How do you exchange murders in the foriegn currency market?

What is the rate of exchange for a mass murderer?

Murder one in exchange for thousands?

OK. Let's make a public display of it and call it theater.

Reality TV.

I have a headache.

Capital punishment is barbaric. This is NO answer to anything.

It is murder. Period. It is a public display of acceptance of murder.

No excuses. None.

No lives are saved because of it. Nothing positive occurs because of it. It is murder. Plain and simple theatrical assasination for, as I said before, the sole purpose of attempting to offer solace to the victim's families.

The victim's families need to get over it and accept it without adding to the barbarism by playing into the hand of the perpetrator by promoting violence.

you both make good points, but i'm not swayed just yet. i think that murder itself, pre-meditated and then concealed, is barbaric and sickening. but i think preservation of a non-violent society is necessary and important.

i think that capital punishment when performed by injection, under the supervision of a doctor, could be seen as a peace-loving act. maybe in our times, with the state of our current prison and justice systems this is not the case, but i think that it's possible.

it couldn't be exacted at every conviction, there are many variables. but what if in a particular case the murder was caught on video, or was witnessed by a number of people... there are cases where guilt is not questioned, merely motive.

but my father was a homicide detective for 30 years, so i may be biased. most of the cases he worked on were not blood-thirsty psychopaths, although there were certainly some of those too, but a lot were just people who made bad choices, the source of their conflict could have been dealt with in less fatal ways. if those people had known, really known that they could not get away with this act, that they would certainly be put to death for taking another's life, a lot of eyes might be blackened, but lives saved.

when i look at it with a long-term perspective, i still see the upside.

[Scootertrash]

The idea that people approve of killing people to show people that killing people is wrong just doesnt seem to work for me.

[judih]

it does seem a little absurd
even for the 21st century

[stilltrucking]

is self defense absurd?

i wasn't thinking about it as a deterrent. We know that it does not work that way. I was thinking about self defense. Do you have the right to kill someone in self defense. There is a serial killer being paroled after 16 years, he has confessed to a lot of murders, he got a plea deal, now the scramble is on to figure out how to keep him in jail, because he said he had a good time and will continue with his hobby.
*******
Well maybe not:

DETROIT — A witness who saw a woman fighting a man in a Ferndale alley on a Saturday night 25 years ago may be the key to keeping one of the country’s most notorious serial killers in prison.

Using information from that witness, Michigan Attorney General Michael Cox on Thursday charged former Inkster resident Coral Eugene Watts, 48, with the 1979 death of Helen Mae Dutcher, 36, who was stabbed and slashed repeatedly in an alley near Woodward.

Watts has confessed to 13 other murders and is serving a 60-year burglary sentence in a Texas prison. But he is scheduled to be paroled in two years.
*******
Hannah Arendt: Eichmann in Jerusalem. A Report On The Banality Of Evil. New York: The Viking Press, 1963.
Been forty years since I read it but it was pretty good case against capital punishment if I remember correctly

[knip]

yes i do...but not for deterrence...for revenge

it is probably natural considering the business i am in that i wouldn't have a problem with this...

but as someone pointed out, there is the problem of mistakes

i agree that it should be reserved for premeditated murder, yet if someone did unspeakable evil to someone i loved, i might premeditatively murder them...

when all is said and done, we BETTER BE FUCKING RIGHT ABOUT IT...

[Dave The Dov]

Again I say the DP is nothing more then revenge killing. It will never stop crime at all.
_________________
Volvo Cars

[izeveryboyin]

I posted something here awhile ago called "hoorah for the death penalty" or something like that, in which I believe Dave? made some excellent points against capital punishment. All of which were points I agreed w/intensely!! I fear that with capital punishment, we are becoming the very creatures we put to death. We become the murderers, we become the rapists and bombers. We become Timothy Mcveigh. But all of those CP advocates hide behind a cloak of justice, and shit right on the constitution next to the part where it goes against "curel and unusual" punishment. Frying someone in a chair until they die... hmmm.... cruel, yes... unusual... I'd say so. I mean, Christ, If shit like that is supposed to be the norm than we're a people much more fucked than I thought. I suppose Brad Thomas is just a man who wants to make his music: "Bring in the witnesses, put them on a gurney, and let's rock and roll", he said.

[mtmynd]

I don't believe the Death Penalty is too harsh for serial killers. There are a lot of people involved in their killings. Maybe the families of victims should decide, eh?

[STUPID BOB]

Wow. Seems the topic spurred more fervor than art. Oh, well. I think all of you missed a stick or two.

1. We are all murderers either by action or inaction
2. Don't fall for the "we're not animals" crap - we are
3. Predator/Prey relationships have been around since day one
4. Murderers tend to live in prison a LONG time on YOUR money
5. The threat of a socially organized execution on an individual scale keeps a huge number of people from killing -- really it does
(doesn't seem to work too well on a large scale though - it keeps getting other big gangs aroused)

A solution or two:

1. We should have only one law: There Shall Be No Laws

Don't get on a high horse or faint. Think about that a minute. This would facilitate peace a lot quicker than the roads we're on now. Think about it. And don't think for a minute I enjoy killing.

2. Use bio trans techniques to turn us all into Bonobo's

After all, the family that screws together stays together.

I think a first step in the right direction is for the commoners to have the right to instant justice, something that has been taken away from us but is slowly gaining ground -- even in Texas. That's why I'm getting my CHL. I refuse to be a victim if I can possibly help it.

[abcrystcats]

I voted yes. We had this discussion on another website just recently.

However, I do not think premeditated murder should be the criterion for determining its use. People who commit premeditated murders usually aren't a danger to society as a whole. I realize that's a broad, general statement, but premeditated murders take weeks, if not months or years of planning. They are usually committed because the person hopes to gain some material advantage. I think life in prison without possibility of parole is an effective punishment for these people. And if they get out (by some chance) there's little possibility that they will murder again. OK, it could happen, but it's unlikely.

I do think that murderers like Scott Peterson are at the absolute lowest rung of society. Have they forfeited the right to be members of the human race? Heck, yes.

I also do NOT think capital punishment deters crime, and I do NOT think punishment or revenge ought to be the reason for choosing the death penalty.

As stilltrucking said earlier, I believe in the death penalty as a method of social "self-defense." I believe we ought to execute serial killers, for these reasons:

1) If released, there is a high likelihood that they will go out and kill again. Serial killing is an addictive habit.

2) They are sociopaths. There is at present no cure for sociopathy.

3) There is a low probability that the wrong person will be convicted when there are multiple murders involved. Often the serial killer himself confesses to the crimes and helps the investigators.

4) Some serial killers have asked for death. Some serial killers have expressed insight into their own conditions that show that they know they are sick, but they cannot help themselves.

Quoting stilltrucking: "some people are so dangerous it is very tempting to seek a permanent solution"

I hear what you are saying about taxpayer's money going to support murderers living in prison. I think that is a valid point, but I also think there have been cases where people have been wrongly accused of crimes they did not commit. I prefer to reserve capital punishment for those criminals who present the greatest danger to society, and who have a preponderance of overwhelming evidence to convict them.

I also think that if we do not use the death penalty judiciously, we are in danger of becoming as bad as the murderers themselves. I think we respond emotionally to certain crimes, and our anger and disgust takes over.

Opposing the death penalty for ALL criminals, no matter how dangerous they are to society is naive.