<i>There are times
When you find
Lobsters in a bucket,
Can't climb out.
Why won't they climb away?
Because other lobsters
pull them down.
- from "Lobster Bucket" by The Aquabats</i>
The above quotation, although taken from a silly song (indeed, one of the silliest from a band that deals in particularly silly songs), is a fantastic metaphor for something more serious, an all-to-real flaw in human behavior. The lobsters, having been caught and placed in a bucket, have a common goal: to escape from the bucket. Each lobster is trying to accomplish this goal on his own, and as one climbs, the others try to climb over him, and their weight pulls him down. The end result, of course, is that no lobsters escape, and they all end up boiled and eaten. The tragedy of this is that if the lobsters had only been able to cooperate, they might have all escaped their delicious, buttery fate. No, wait, that sounds too pleasant; scratch that, and in its place read "their boiling and scaldy fate."
Not too long ago, I had an IM conversation with our own Billectric, and I asked him what kind of feedback he had received from his local crowd in regard to his work. He replied that there weren't too many literary types around, and the few that were around were all too busy with their own work to help out with his. I was reminded of the above song, and remarked, "Just like lobsters in a bucket." Luckily, Bill was apparently familiar with the behavior of be-bucketed lobsters and understood the analogy, which could have been misinterpreted as a non-sequitur. (I had personally observed crayfish, similar to small lobsters, in buckets before hearing the song, so I already had a pretty good idea built-in as to what lobsters in a bucket were like)
This struck me as unfortunate, especially when I realized how widespread this is these days. Where is the Algonquin Round Table? Where is Ezra Pound giving the difficult and necessary advice for TS Eliot's <i>The Wasteland</i>? Where is Allen Ginsberg testifying at the <i>Naked Lunch</i> obscenity trial? Where would those people be without eachother?
Where is the camaraderie, the constructive criticism, the readership, the celebration, the advice, the favors, the promotion, the encouragement, the attention, the connection, the unity? You see it here and there, but not nearly enough.
Are you a lobster? I'll be honest with you; I'm not going to point out the speck in your eye and ignore the beam in my own: I am a lobster. And I mean a <i>lob-ster</i>. I post my work on the message boards expecting response, but I ignore the posts of others. That's right, <i>ignore</i>. I scroll right down to my thread and hardly give even the subject lines of others a second glance.
Why? Well, obviously, I'm ignorant and selfish (shellfish?). That's the hard truth of it. It's simply not conscionable behavior. I'd be remiss, especially with all my pontification on "wizard arts" and improving behavior in general, to neglect saying that I need to do something about it. So I admit, I am a lobster, and in that regard, not a good person. Frankly, I need to improve. And now, to all you friends (for I like to think of you as friends, underneath my lobster shell) and to the universe my intent to improve. I propose a challenge to myself, and hopefully I will be able to answer.
Furthermore, I propose a challenge to you. Namely, to observe your own behavior and ask yourself, "Am I a lobster? Do I need to improve?" (I'm not going to tell you you're a lobster; that part is up to you). If the answer is "yes," I further challenge you do to something about it. And for the love of all that is sacred, waste no time apologizing for any lobstery; it would be a greater service to yourself and your fellow bucketeers to take actual action.
I know that you are busy; we all are. And I know it's not possible to keep up with every post. But it <i>is</i> possible to do what you can do (which is why it's what you <i>can</i> do), to put forth a thoughtful, sincere effort. Remember, the universe responds to sincere effort (ah, you thought you'd get out of this without my metaphysical hocus-pocus? Ha!). Do what you can. Don't hold back.
Remember, friends, it only takes one lobster to pull another down. One lobster bisque is one too many.
<i>People too me and you
Can also be like lobsters in bucket.
It's all just one big mess,
Please don't be a lobster;
Friends are best.</i>
Don't Be a Lobster! (a call to arms)
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Marksman45
- Posts: 452
- Joined: September 15th, 2004, 11:07 pm
- Location: last Tuesday
- Contact:
You're a good writer Marksy. For I confess I don't always read right to the end of all posts because frankly if I'm not grabbed I will stray away. Does that make me a lobster suitable for bisque?
Yes, sometimes I'm a lobster, but usually I'll read other people's work, comment if I feel the need, but I get very discouraged when comments appear to be ignored. I really dislike being ignored.
I have noticed that there are those who silently gobble up people's comments without the bare minimum of acknowledgement and frankly I hesitate to bother after that because it appears to be unappreciated. But you live and you learn, I am learning to comment regardless, if I like the work I want the writer to know it. I am learning that writers are a strange lot, perhaps their minds are on a different plane and so it just doesn't occur to them to give a nod of thanks to their readers...and really why should they I suppose. They have supplied product, something for the reader to read, and that is the end of their effort I suppose.
But, I like to thank people kind enough to read and comment. They are encouraging to me, even if the comments are critical, hell, especially if they are critical...it's all a learning process. And even those who feel they are head and shoulders above us in their writing skills, still and always, will have something else to learn. And who better to listen to than your reader, your audience...especially an audience of fellow word lovers.
Anyway, I should clam up...er, lobster up, before I lose my audience here. But I just want to say that I appreciate this post because it serves as a reminder for all of us here to do our level best to at least try to support each other in as much as we can. Yes, we are busy, but it seems to me if we're not too busy to post our work it should naturally follow that we are not too busy to return the favor, at least occasionally, and read some others work.
So good for you Marksy for at least realizing your lobsterishness. And I don't mind your stepping on my back to get out of the bucket but do reach a claw down to me afterward, if not to help me out, at least to say thanks.
Shall we start "The Lobster Bucket Society" for up and coming lobsters. Our motto can be, "Give a lobster a helping claw...he/she will thank you for it."
Rock lobster on!
Yes, sometimes I'm a lobster, but usually I'll read other people's work, comment if I feel the need, but I get very discouraged when comments appear to be ignored. I really dislike being ignored.
I have noticed that there are those who silently gobble up people's comments without the bare minimum of acknowledgement and frankly I hesitate to bother after that because it appears to be unappreciated. But you live and you learn, I am learning to comment regardless, if I like the work I want the writer to know it. I am learning that writers are a strange lot, perhaps their minds are on a different plane and so it just doesn't occur to them to give a nod of thanks to their readers...and really why should they I suppose. They have supplied product, something for the reader to read, and that is the end of their effort I suppose.
But, I like to thank people kind enough to read and comment. They are encouraging to me, even if the comments are critical, hell, especially if they are critical...it's all a learning process. And even those who feel they are head and shoulders above us in their writing skills, still and always, will have something else to learn. And who better to listen to than your reader, your audience...especially an audience of fellow word lovers.
Anyway, I should clam up...er, lobster up, before I lose my audience here. But I just want to say that I appreciate this post because it serves as a reminder for all of us here to do our level best to at least try to support each other in as much as we can. Yes, we are busy, but it seems to me if we're not too busy to post our work it should naturally follow that we are not too busy to return the favor, at least occasionally, and read some others work.
So good for you Marksy for at least realizing your lobsterishness. And I don't mind your stepping on my back to get out of the bucket but do reach a claw down to me afterward, if not to help me out, at least to say thanks.
Shall we start "The Lobster Bucket Society" for up and coming lobsters. Our motto can be, "Give a lobster a helping claw...he/she will thank you for it."
Rock lobster on!
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
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Doreen Peri
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14598
- Joined: July 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm
- Location: Virginia
- Contact:
A fine analogy, Mars! Good writing, too!
You should be a columnist. Actually, we have an opening for a columnist right here at Studio Eight. Wanna write one? Once a week? Once every 2 weeks? Whatever you can fit into your schedule. "The Artist's Life"? or "Mars Poetica"? or ??? You name it.
heh.... if you have time. Just an idea.
Oh and if you accept the job, you're in luck! It pays the same amount I get.
About the lobster bit .... I tried so hard to support all of the lobsters and help them get outa the cage, I forget about myself and fear I could end up boiled, dipped in steamy butter and swallowed whole. I have hardly written a word in months. But that's just me. My own fault. I accept all the blame.
As far as responding to people on the internet, I donno... I do my best to reply to many posts but it's hard to do here since this is my site. That's sorta hard to explain, so I won't even try to explain it.
You should be a columnist. Actually, we have an opening for a columnist right here at Studio Eight. Wanna write one? Once a week? Once every 2 weeks? Whatever you can fit into your schedule. "The Artist's Life"? or "Mars Poetica"? or ??? You name it.
heh.... if you have time. Just an idea.Oh and if you accept the job, you're in luck! It pays the same amount I get.
About the lobster bit .... I tried so hard to support all of the lobsters and help them get outa the cage, I forget about myself and fear I could end up boiled, dipped in steamy butter and swallowed whole. I have hardly written a word in months. But that's just me. My own fault. I accept all the blame.
As far as responding to people on the internet, I donno... I do my best to reply to many posts but it's hard to do here since this is my site. That's sorta hard to explain, so I won't even try to explain it.
that is a great metaphor and a great post that i hope has legs.
if i could, i'd like to to take it in a direction begun by mr hand. i'd like to ask also: where are the ginsbergs and ferlinghettis helping one another not just improve but expand?
billectric is producing work, tangible work. something i conceived of about a year and a half ago and barely got launched was aiming to take a collective of writers connected via internet and actually create something tangible. doreen and lrod are creating tangible products every day. they create music. inspired, original music.
what binds us here is a common theme, a common point of view. that is all that bound the beats. their styles and media varied greatly, but they were able to come together. it might be apt that this discussion is timed with the ny public library's purchase of wsb's collected private writing, which was apparently intended for future perusal. the beat triumvirate of wsb, allen and jack were of very different writers. they had commonalities, but they believed in one another.
i think lobsterism goes beyond post critiques. i think lobsterism is holding internet writers back but that we are just the height of a bucket away from making a real impact on the everyday life of real readers. we need some focus, someone to bring us together. i have an idea for a writing product. it may not be the best or even suitable. it may be a starting point. it may be worthless, and i dont even think it's worth mentioning until we develop this general idea some more. but i think that we can be focusing higher, and i think this group can stand. i think the last incarnation of this group was fucked in the ass, but we can recover and if we think as a group in terms of what we want to achieve as individuals, we can really do some damage.
if i could, i'd like to to take it in a direction begun by mr hand. i'd like to ask also: where are the ginsbergs and ferlinghettis helping one another not just improve but expand?
billectric is producing work, tangible work. something i conceived of about a year and a half ago and barely got launched was aiming to take a collective of writers connected via internet and actually create something tangible. doreen and lrod are creating tangible products every day. they create music. inspired, original music.
what binds us here is a common theme, a common point of view. that is all that bound the beats. their styles and media varied greatly, but they were able to come together. it might be apt that this discussion is timed with the ny public library's purchase of wsb's collected private writing, which was apparently intended for future perusal. the beat triumvirate of wsb, allen and jack were of very different writers. they had commonalities, but they believed in one another.
i think lobsterism goes beyond post critiques. i think lobsterism is holding internet writers back but that we are just the height of a bucket away from making a real impact on the everyday life of real readers. we need some focus, someone to bring us together. i have an idea for a writing product. it may not be the best or even suitable. it may be a starting point. it may be worthless, and i dont even think it's worth mentioning until we develop this general idea some more. but i think that we can be focusing higher, and i think this group can stand. i think the last incarnation of this group was fucked in the ass, but we can recover and if we think as a group in terms of what we want to achieve as individuals, we can really do some damage.
and knowing i'm so eager to fight cant make letting me in any easier.
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Would critiques be truly appreciated... or simply passed off as "I was just writing something. Don't take it so seriously"..?
May sound simplistic, but ego defenses are any artists biggest enemy, the more time spent on a work the stronger de' fence.
Necessary? Not at all. But given the anonymity of the internet... who really is who? And what do they know? There may be a reluctance to criticism if not as carefully worded as that which is being critiqued. A great challenge for any writer to pull off successfully... again, given the anonymous nature of it all. It ain't no face-to-face we're contending with here.. no show of emotion, no voices... not like sitting around in a bar chewing the fat over someone's endeavors, enjoying each other's expressions and laughter or seriousness.
As wonderful as cyber-space is, I think it requires an even better communications thru these words in order to convey ideas, suggestions and even kudos. Challenges!
If one is really interested in being a writer, this format (cyber-ville) is definitely challenging to writers. How else do we communicate on this 'machine'..?
Comments? Critiques? Slander? Replies?
May sound simplistic, but ego defenses are any artists biggest enemy, the more time spent on a work the stronger de' fence.
Necessary? Not at all. But given the anonymity of the internet... who really is who? And what do they know? There may be a reluctance to criticism if not as carefully worded as that which is being critiqued. A great challenge for any writer to pull off successfully... again, given the anonymous nature of it all. It ain't no face-to-face we're contending with here.. no show of emotion, no voices... not like sitting around in a bar chewing the fat over someone's endeavors, enjoying each other's expressions and laughter or seriousness.
As wonderful as cyber-space is, I think it requires an even better communications thru these words in order to convey ideas, suggestions and even kudos. Challenges!
If one is really interested in being a writer, this format (cyber-ville) is definitely challenging to writers. How else do we communicate on this 'machine'..?
Comments? Critiques? Slander? Replies?
All very true mt.
And I'll make, really what are just a couple of spacey, off the top of my head comments.
What I like about cyberspace, the internet crowd, is the opportunity for those of us who choose to, to be our complete selves.
Writers can and often are rather a bland lot to appearance and eye. What is inside really only comes out on the page, written. Out and about in the public eye, in face to face circumstance many are quiet, unobtrusive, seeming ne'er do wells. But written, written, that is their coeur de force.
I am grateful, grateful for this chance to submit my rather silly, often pointless offerings. I assure you, that while I can be quite silly in real life, I wouldn't think of, nor say, half the things that I can and do in this medium. Perhaps that is only my perception of me and what I'm like and not the perceptions of those that know me...shrug...I can only guess at that. But I'm digressing as I always do. The thing is...
Put it out there! If it means something to you put it out there! See where it goes. See if it stirs up any reactions, any reads, any interests. If we sit in our little corners of the universe and vegetate with no voice then what is the point, really what is the point. Seize the day, seize the moments if you can, when you can, because often, so very often, the opportunities are missed never to return again, and then we live in that damnable irritating mode of...
Shoulda...woulda...coulda...
And if it goes nowhere, sits there like a lump of unmoulded clay, at least you can see it, see it for what it was to you.
Hope I made some sense.
And I'll make, really what are just a couple of spacey, off the top of my head comments.
What I like about cyberspace, the internet crowd, is the opportunity for those of us who choose to, to be our complete selves.
Writers can and often are rather a bland lot to appearance and eye. What is inside really only comes out on the page, written. Out and about in the public eye, in face to face circumstance many are quiet, unobtrusive, seeming ne'er do wells. But written, written, that is their coeur de force.
I am grateful, grateful for this chance to submit my rather silly, often pointless offerings. I assure you, that while I can be quite silly in real life, I wouldn't think of, nor say, half the things that I can and do in this medium. Perhaps that is only my perception of me and what I'm like and not the perceptions of those that know me...shrug...I can only guess at that. But I'm digressing as I always do. The thing is...
Put it out there! If it means something to you put it out there! See where it goes. See if it stirs up any reactions, any reads, any interests. If we sit in our little corners of the universe and vegetate with no voice then what is the point, really what is the point. Seize the day, seize the moments if you can, when you can, because often, so very often, the opportunities are missed never to return again, and then we live in that damnable irritating mode of...
Shoulda...woulda...coulda...
And if it goes nowhere, sits there like a lump of unmoulded clay, at least you can see it, see it for what it was to you.
Hope I made some sense.
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
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Doreen Peri
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14598
- Joined: July 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm
- Location: Virginia
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i think firsty's right on target when he says we CAN unite to really make a mark ... and "do some damage." I've been saying for a long time that i truly think there is something bigger.. something more than meets the eye in the energy and talents among writers and other artists i've met and come to know on the internet.
We like to bring the thing to life... our shows... they're such a cool thing because we do them with many people we know from the net and bringing it all to life like that really is a powerful thing in my opinion. Not too long ago, we did a show at a cable tv station in arlington and also did some readings and interviews in the basement of the producer's home. (perry lindstrom who is a member of this board.. he doesn't post very often though.) We had something like 8 people doing those interviews and readings that day (taped) and it was just amazing because I looked around the room and realized that every last one of us met via the internet. If it wasn't for the internet, we wouldn't have known each other, though several of us lived locally.
"They" were the "beat generation." I call us "the net generation." There is so much talent in this medium it's astounding to me. I'd love to see it better channelled and more projects and collaborations happening. The idea of Studio Eight was to focus on the many arts and bring them together but I haven't carried through with developing this site like I want to... maybe one day.
Still, though, the internet is a tool. It's really just the tip of the iceberg. So many of us have met each other and to me that's where the energy can really become something! I'd love to one day have a brick and mortar spot... 'studio eight live!" with artist's studios, a gallery, a cafe, live music & spoken poetry... It's a dream i've been working on.
There's so much we can do to support each other! And when artistic people come together, new and more exciting things are created rather than when they go it alone.
I loved the idea you had, firsty, to do the print anthology gathering writings from the web and having people print them out and distribute them in their own communities. I'm sorry that never materialized but one day I'd love to see something like that happen.
Again, I also love the live in-person get togethers and I'd love to see that type of effort grow where there are more readings and performances much more often. The problem with that is that many of us are so far away from each other, it makes it logisitically very difficult.
But artists/poets/writers etc.. can and do go out in their own communities and arrange readings and other events, then meet online to plan them and promote them .... that works great!
As far as OUR community here.. well, a lot of us have known each other for a long time and it would be great to do some more inventive things for web publication. We'd like to have an area of the site for podcasts. It would be good if more people could buy a mic and plug it into the back of their machines and record some pieces so we can publish them in a spoken word section. It would also be cool if those who had video cameras could start making videos of spoken word or even shooting footage in their art galleries to show their work. All these types of things can go up on the net and can also be used collaboratively.
What we need is a staff to help work on the development of this site (not just the boards, but the rest of the site) ... we have a Content Management System installed.. I need to get it set up so we can start using it. It would be great to have one person who was interested in volunteering for each section of the site (See this thread .. What are the 8? http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6244 ) ... one person who would be in charge of helping to find artists who want to contribute in each section and helping to get content up there so we can promote each other's work.
Just brainstorming.... my head is about to explode... i have soooo many ideas!
gotta get back to work..
Thanks for the dynamic topic, Mars...
here's to lobsters breaking outa their shells ....
We like to bring the thing to life... our shows... they're such a cool thing because we do them with many people we know from the net and bringing it all to life like that really is a powerful thing in my opinion. Not too long ago, we did a show at a cable tv station in arlington and also did some readings and interviews in the basement of the producer's home. (perry lindstrom who is a member of this board.. he doesn't post very often though.) We had something like 8 people doing those interviews and readings that day (taped) and it was just amazing because I looked around the room and realized that every last one of us met via the internet. If it wasn't for the internet, we wouldn't have known each other, though several of us lived locally.
"They" were the "beat generation." I call us "the net generation." There is so much talent in this medium it's astounding to me. I'd love to see it better channelled and more projects and collaborations happening. The idea of Studio Eight was to focus on the many arts and bring them together but I haven't carried through with developing this site like I want to... maybe one day.
Still, though, the internet is a tool. It's really just the tip of the iceberg. So many of us have met each other and to me that's where the energy can really become something! I'd love to one day have a brick and mortar spot... 'studio eight live!" with artist's studios, a gallery, a cafe, live music & spoken poetry... It's a dream i've been working on.
There's so much we can do to support each other! And when artistic people come together, new and more exciting things are created rather than when they go it alone.
I loved the idea you had, firsty, to do the print anthology gathering writings from the web and having people print them out and distribute them in their own communities. I'm sorry that never materialized but one day I'd love to see something like that happen.
Again, I also love the live in-person get togethers and I'd love to see that type of effort grow where there are more readings and performances much more often. The problem with that is that many of us are so far away from each other, it makes it logisitically very difficult.
But artists/poets/writers etc.. can and do go out in their own communities and arrange readings and other events, then meet online to plan them and promote them .... that works great!
As far as OUR community here.. well, a lot of us have known each other for a long time and it would be great to do some more inventive things for web publication. We'd like to have an area of the site for podcasts. It would be good if more people could buy a mic and plug it into the back of their machines and record some pieces so we can publish them in a spoken word section. It would also be cool if those who had video cameras could start making videos of spoken word or even shooting footage in their art galleries to show their work. All these types of things can go up on the net and can also be used collaboratively.
What we need is a staff to help work on the development of this site (not just the boards, but the rest of the site) ... we have a Content Management System installed.. I need to get it set up so we can start using it. It would be great to have one person who was interested in volunteering for each section of the site (See this thread .. What are the 8? http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6244 ) ... one person who would be in charge of helping to find artists who want to contribute in each section and helping to get content up there so we can promote each other's work.
Just brainstorming.... my head is about to explode... i have soooo many ideas!
gotta get back to work..
Thanks for the dynamic topic, Mars...
here's to lobsters breaking outa their shells ....
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
I would be lying if I said I read it but The Titleall-to-real flaw in human behavior
Human All To Human’ makes me smile.
Nietzsche: Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits (Cambridge Texts in the History of Philosophy) (Paperback)
I think I read everything that is posted here. That can't be true, but I read some people more than others. Once in a while I will scroll for hours. Like text box sized stuff. Mindy McAdams screen shots. Yeah I like stuff that just gives me one screen to read no scroll bar.That's right, ignore. I scroll right down to my thread and hardly give even the subject lines of others a second glance.
I pretty do most of my poetry and creative reading here and sometimes I check out stuff on litkicks. Mostly the links
it just doesn't occur to them to give a nod of thanks to their readers...and really why should they I suppose. They have supplied product, something for the reader to read, and that is the end of their effort I suppose.
Not for me mousey just synapse away I suppose, I thank the writers here, If you start sending me ten bucks everytime you read something of mine I will thank you profusely. I don't think I care who reples to me. Should I cnange my siganture line to thanks for reading. Sorry if I offended you by my lack of expression of apprecaition. you know you honor me, so does judih doreen arcadia abbycats wd AB and the pecker heads too, you all honor me.I am trying not to add to my mousey1 deleled replies feisty one, watching what I say, You must know by now that. Anytime you reply to my posts for me it is like playing chess with some one I admire. (JP) The Human Use Of Humaning Beings, NW language communication and jam, what ever that is,
we be jamin
This is my only online community, my only life on the screen. I tend to post around more than I should. I like playing the whole board, but I should probably stick to GO or Trailer Park. Good to know old bill is still kicking he wrote a story here and it is a gem. I will try and find the link
You are right mars, I appologize too much. I been holding back astory. One of these days it will just scroll I hope. At least a first draft.
I am so ashmamed I am a canibal, I love lobsters, they remind me of ocean spyders.
This exactly the kind of post I hate. If you really scrolled this far I do feel like I owe you ten bucks.
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Marksman45
- Posts: 452
- Joined: September 15th, 2004, 11:07 pm
- Location: last Tuesday
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Fantastic! Wonderful response from everyone, even Cecil-I-latched-onto-one-aspect-of-the-article-and-ignored-the-rest. Don't worry, I don't read your weekly column. :)
(you know I'm funnin', even without the smiley, dontcha?)
But sewiously here-- my model, the shining example in my paradigm, is Ezra Pound's criticism, through correspondence, of <i>The Wasteland</i> (Pound is credited in the acknowledgments, as "the better craftsman"). Rather biting and to-the-point, no pussy-footing around; for example, there was an extended section of verse using the same rhyme and meter, and in the margin Pound noted "This verse not interesting enough to warrant so much of it." That must have been painful. But Pound was right. Eliot took it out and <i>The Wasteland</i> was better for it. The changes made to the poem due to Pound's advice were quite extensive, and the comments all just as blunt as the example.
Of course, Eliot solicited this critique. Unwelcome critique can be avoided just by the author voicing whether or not he wants critique.
I would personally encourage everyone to ask for critique... even if the critique is way off it can give the writer some insight, and insight is gold when it comes to writing.
(I actually don't much care for Eliot or Pound, but I recognize their importance and appreciate their craft)
Dor- As much fun as doing a column sounds, I don't know that I can do it... Frankly, the regularity is daunting. I'm a man of slow-cooked words.... The conversation with Bill happened like a month or two ago, and I've been trying to write this article since :) I'm afraid I'd end up missing all of my deadlines, and irregularity has a killing effect on people's interest in matters like that
I dunno... lemme think about it.
(By the way, I personally don't think YOU need to worry about being a lobster. Providing this place for us is a decidedly un-lobsterish action)
firsty- whatever your idea is for a tangible work, count me in. Perhaps we could form a committee and get it worked out exactly what we want to do, how we want to do it, what needs to be done to make it happen, who has the tools & time to do things like layout/production/proofreading/editing/whatever.
mousey- you're right, writers are a strange lot. But then, people are pretty damned weird in general. [quote]Put it out there! If it means something to you put it out there! See where it goes.[/quote]
Right there, dead on, I agree 100%.
stilltruckin'- you may not read everything, but I know you read everything that I post, 'cause you always respond. And thanks for that, by the way. It's really nice to have a loyal reader like that :)
(you know I'm funnin', even without the smiley, dontcha?)
But sewiously here-- my model, the shining example in my paradigm, is Ezra Pound's criticism, through correspondence, of <i>The Wasteland</i> (Pound is credited in the acknowledgments, as "the better craftsman"). Rather biting and to-the-point, no pussy-footing around; for example, there was an extended section of verse using the same rhyme and meter, and in the margin Pound noted "This verse not interesting enough to warrant so much of it." That must have been painful. But Pound was right. Eliot took it out and <i>The Wasteland</i> was better for it. The changes made to the poem due to Pound's advice were quite extensive, and the comments all just as blunt as the example.
Of course, Eliot solicited this critique. Unwelcome critique can be avoided just by the author voicing whether or not he wants critique.
I would personally encourage everyone to ask for critique... even if the critique is way off it can give the writer some insight, and insight is gold when it comes to writing.
(I actually don't much care for Eliot or Pound, but I recognize their importance and appreciate their craft)
Dor- As much fun as doing a column sounds, I don't know that I can do it... Frankly, the regularity is daunting. I'm a man of slow-cooked words.... The conversation with Bill happened like a month or two ago, and I've been trying to write this article since :) I'm afraid I'd end up missing all of my deadlines, and irregularity has a killing effect on people's interest in matters like that
I dunno... lemme think about it.
(By the way, I personally don't think YOU need to worry about being a lobster. Providing this place for us is a decidedly un-lobsterish action)
firsty- whatever your idea is for a tangible work, count me in. Perhaps we could form a committee and get it worked out exactly what we want to do, how we want to do it, what needs to be done to make it happen, who has the tools & time to do things like layout/production/proofreading/editing/whatever.
mousey- you're right, writers are a strange lot. But then, people are pretty damned weird in general. [quote]Put it out there! If it means something to you put it out there! See where it goes.[/quote]
Right there, dead on, I agree 100%.
stilltruckin'- you may not read everything, but I know you read everything that I post, 'cause you always respond. And thanks for that, by the way. It's really nice to have a loyal reader like that :)
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
Maybe so Mars, I don't keep track. Just a lot of things I don't care about anymore loyal readers is one of them. But you are welcome. I wish bill would posst here more.
I don't keep up with asthetics or is it aesthetics. Last thing I read on the subject was before you were born, something by Marcuse, one of the last things he wrote.
Yeah I like your stuff mars.
you owe me nothing
My hero is Ted Williams
and Ted Hughes. was a loving father.
I mind wanders to
dots from another galaxy the ghost of the mad girl just walked over my grave.
kind of looped to night mars, drifting off on tangents
bed time.
I don't keep up with asthetics or is it aesthetics. Last thing I read on the subject was before you were born, something by Marcuse, one of the last things he wrote.
Yeah I like your stuff mars.
you owe me nothing
My hero is Ted Williams
and Ted Hughes. was a loving father.
I mind wanders to
dots from another galaxy the ghost of the mad girl just walked over my grave.
kind of looped to night mars, drifting off on tangents
bed time.
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Marksman45
- Posts: 452
- Joined: September 15th, 2004, 11:07 pm
- Location: last Tuesday
- Contact:
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
We need about a couple more thousand characters in that tag line so we can write a fifteen page document on Discalaimers.Comments? Critiques? Slander? Replies?
I would love to put a little red x in the corner of every post I mmake. just like windows you could trun me off, close me up if you want to "quit me" is that a hip thing to say? Just let your eyes blur over and your consciousness stray.
DP I skipped your responce to, this is mars string I know but I only red down a lttle bit before I got hysterical to post
Cecil I love jaming, I do the best I can, but this is a free ride here, nobody paying me to write this shit. I don't care.
I posted plenty of snarls on litkicks. One about a kiss on a hot day in august in the gritty heat of Buss exhaust and heavy traffic around Wheaton JPlaza, I wrote about a kiss. Someone replied and missed my point and I woofed at them like a rabid dog.
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Marksman45
- Posts: 452
- Joined: September 15th, 2004, 11:07 pm
- Location: last Tuesday
- Contact:
I'm glad you know when to not take me seriously (which is of course, nearly all the time)mtmynd wrote:Wow, Mars... maybe your original post was over my head! But give me credit - I attempted to understand what I had read of your post... I mean I did take the time, you know? And I did try to add my slant of a critique... Maybe I'll stand up next time I read your posts.
I have, however, truly been guilty of ignoring your column. I used to read it all the time back on litkicks, but I tend to absent-mindedly glide past it with it being on its own board. I am in love with your paintings, though, especially the black white and red ones.
Mars... you're missing some brilliant shit. I could use some of your feedback. It might help me become a better writer... or at least write with more clarity so more can see what I attempt to target.
You wrote -
Peace,
Cecil
You wrote -
Maybe one lobster could make it outta the bucket given what you said here. You know nobody becomes a marksman until they can hit their target consistently and consistency takes a great deal of practice... and encouragement.Where is the camaraderie, the constructive criticism, the readership, the celebration, the advice, the favors, the promotion, the encouragement, the attention, the connection, the unity? You see it here and there, but not nearly enough.
Peace,
Cecil
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