Trash These Books

Go ahead. Talk about it.
Post Reply
User avatar
stilltrucking
Posts: 20646
Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas

Trash These Books

Post by stilltrucking » January 7th, 2007, 9:33 am

Books on the Chopping Block in Fairfax
Tuesday, January 2, 2007; Page A06
The following books have been weeded from the shelves of various branches of the Fairfax County Public Library system or haven't been checked out in 24 months and could be discarded. In parentheses are the branches where the books are endangered. The same title might be available at another branch.
http://www.xmere.com/forums/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... t/asection




The Works of Aristotle Aristotle (Centreville)
Sexual Politics Kate Millett (Centreville)
The Great Philosophers Karl Jaspers (Centreville)
Carry Me Home Diane McWhorter (Centreville)
The Sound and the Fury
William Faulkner (George Mason Regional)
The Mayor of Casterbridge
Thomas Hardy (George Mason Regional)
For Whom the Bell Tolls
Ernest Hemingway (George Mason Regional)
Desolation Angels
Jack Kerouac (George Mason Regional)
Doctor Zhivago
Boris Pasternak (George Mason Regional)
Remembrance of Things Past
Marcel Proust (George Mason Regional)
Oh Pray My Wings Are Gonna Fit Me Well
Maya Angelou (Chantilly Regional)
The Glass Menagerie
Tennessee Williams (Chantilly Regional)
Writings Gertrude Stein (Chantilly Regional
Jane Eyre Charlotte Bronte (Chantilly Regional)
Doctor FaustusChristopher Marlowe (Chantilly Regional)
Great Issues in American History
Richard Hofstadter (Chantilly Regional)
The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas
Gertrude Stein (Chantilly Regional)
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Pohick Regional)
Babylon Revisited: And other stories
F. Scott Fitzgerald (Reston Regional)
To Kill a Mockingbird Harper Lee (Reston Regional)
The Aeneid Virgil (Sherwood Regional)
The Mill on the Floss
George Eliot (Fairfax City Regional)

mtmynd
Posts: 7752
Joined: August 15th, 2004, 8:54 pm
Location: El Paso

Post by mtmynd » January 7th, 2007, 1:34 pm

For me to see that list is somewhat discomforting. But I allow for age to creep into the feelings.

My #1 son, who is a big reader, received quite a few books this Christmas and I was taken by the names of the writers. I recognized but a few - William Gibson, Max Barry, Bret Easton Ellis, C.D. Payne, Frank Beddor, Richard K. Morgan, Kim Grimwood and Frank Portman being some of the list. I have no clue to the genres these folks are writing about but they must be reaching their peers.

Times must be a'changing and a new generation is influenced by new writers... something that has always gone on from generation to generation. It could very well be these new writers have been influenced by the older breed as that is the way of growing.

There'll come a time, depending upon these new writers success, that their own books will meet the same ending as many of those on the given list you provided... ?

User avatar
Zlatko Waterman
Posts: 1631
Joined: August 19th, 2004, 8:30 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Post by Zlatko Waterman » January 7th, 2007, 2:16 pm

Well, ST:

As the husband of a college librarian I'm in a pretty good position to track the continual erosion of interest in libraries. That is, except for special library functions, and, increasingly, those do not involve books .

Electronic media and the use of library sponsored Internet-capable computers are the big attractions in public libraries these days. College libraries are much the same.

Stealing and plagiarizing college papers became routine about ten years ago, then really accelerated with the "downloadable essay and term paper" syndrome from such sites as SCHOOLSUCKS.COM:

http://www.schoolsucks.com/

Their motto is "download your workload" and they feature animated nubile young ladies in apparent ecstasy over the ease of term paper availability.

There are many other such sites.

Many English departments, such as the two where I worked for the final years of my alleged "career" as a full Professor of English ( now emeritus . . .) today use the Internet service TURNITIN.COM

http://turnitin.com/static/home.html

as part of a campaign to slow down plagiarism as the standard method for passing college courses that require writing; but the effort is, however successful, misplaced in my view.

Teachers are usually responsible for plagiarism, since they often create the conditions under which it can flourish.

For this phenomenon, and for many others having to do with college and university life that are not so salubrious, I blame teachers and administration, not students.

But my point is that reading books is not required to obtain a college degree in a vast number of American colleges.

The book checkout rate has declined four hundred percent in the three college libraries in my county since 1980. While occasional well-meaning college managers try to encourage library use and attractiveness, few measures slow down the flagging interest among students and public patrons.

The library where my wife works, like many college libraries, is on the brink of building a Starbucks right inside the library next to the main circulation and reference desks. Many college libraries have already done the same, particularly in larger cities, and some public libraries have followed suit.

The item getting the greatest use in our college libraries is the computer, and library computers ( there are four hundred in my wife's library-- all connected to the Internet DSL high-speed on an Intranet, all capable of full video and audio use) are in constant use. Few books, comparatively, are ever checked out.

While money is available, but usually continually cut back, to buy new books, and librarians make out new book purchase orders, the real attention paid to book collections in the past has either ended or been greatly diminished. Books are no longer in as great a demand as in the 70's,80's and even 90's..

The current battle is over the relative worth of books or the Internet for scholarly study, and I'm speaking here of Masters' and Doctoral study.

Here is a useful article about "Educational Offshoring" and the need for reform in U.S. colleges and universities:

http://news.com.com/Offshoring+U.S.+nee ... 98156.html

How are the availability of and interest in books connected?

Books are slow, labor-intensive and require considerable language training to understand. Like everything else based on consumer capitalism, the Internet is fast, convenient and cost effective -- nearly free-- SchoolSucks stolen essays average about $35.

I typed "Dante's Inferno" into SCHOOLSUCKS.COM and found a paper on the topic, "Cities in Dante's Inferno" for 30 dollars.

( try it yourself)

TERM PAPERS MONTHLY, which can give me a ten-page term paper on "The Big Bang Theory", or one hundred twenty-nine others on the same topic, in addition to featuring the nubile young ladies in color with sunglasses and "Britney" tops, sells a membership for 180 days for $89.95.

Instead of reading any of the books indexed on this page:

http://library.moorparkcollege.edu/cgi- ... =10&HIST=1

like the first one by Karen Fox, explaining the theory, a student can pay for a pre-constructed and polished term paper, "guaranteed" to bring him 'at least a grade of "B"' from his professor.

Would you choose the book over the Internet Cheater Quick Fix?

You (ST) probably would choose the book, but most students would not, for the reasons I gave above.

Just a few reflections from inside.

I don't suppose, by now, that I have to tell you anything about my personal view of books, their sacredness, their ravishing magical attraction for me?

No, I didn't think so.


--Z

User avatar
whimsicaldeb
Posts: 882
Joined: November 3rd, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Northern California, USA
Contact:

Post by whimsicaldeb » January 7th, 2007, 3:27 pm

Here what my son’s English teacher is having my son’s class: (a non-honors/regular sophomore English class in a public high school in California) for reading this year.

“We will read novels, dramas, short stories, essays and poetry, including but not limited to the following selections:

Taming of the Shrew – Shakespeare
Odyssey – Homer
All Quiet on the Western Front – Remarque
Inherit the Wind – Lawrence
Antigone – Sophocles
Ordinary People – Guest
The Joy Luck Club – Tan

He’s currently reading “Inherit the Wind” and has the “Taming of the Shrew” and “The Joy Luck Club” left.

… Last year he did a bunch of reading also: including but not limited to:

Romeo and Juliet
To Kill A Mockingbird
The Martian Chronicals
Hiroshima
and Animal Farm

And others that I can’t remember right now. So, not all classics are being lost to the young. But I have to admit, had my own teachers not made me read the classics when I was in school I wouldn't have been checking them out of the library either.

...

BTW - it's not just new books and computers that are competing with space in the libraries now; there are now extensive CD and DVD collections covering all types of subjects including jazz, classical music, photography, modern art and contemporary history.



Norman, I do not discount what you are showing/saying – how there are new ways to cheat etc; but I counter that with how that was true when we ourselves went to school as well and always will be. Not all students are morons, cheats and/or lazy … back then, or now.

User avatar
Artguy
Posts: 2732
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 1:02 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Artguy » January 7th, 2007, 3:31 pm

many years ago my right wing born again brother in law burned my copy of War & Peace...stating it was communist propoganda...all I could do was laugh at his ignorance.....

User avatar
Zlatko Waterman
Posts: 1631
Joined: August 19th, 2004, 8:30 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Post by Zlatko Waterman » January 7th, 2007, 4:12 pm

And of course, Deb, if you re-read my post, you know I said nothing of this kind:

(paste)

Not all students are morons, cheats and/or lazy … back then, or now.

( end paste)

In fact what I said, was this:

Teachers are often largely responsible for plagiarism. Often it is they who create the opportunity for plagiarism.

Designing an assignment for one's students which defeats plagiarism intrinsically is hard work. Most of my colleagues teaching at colleges like the ones I describe in my post avoided, and avoid today, well-thought-out assignments that are virtually plagiarism-proof.

I'm not sure what your pronoun "that" refers to in this sentence:

(paste)

how that was true when we ourselves went to school as well

( end paste)

but if it refers to "ways to cheat" then the available "ways" during my undergraduate college years: 1963-1969 were extremely limited.

I had the choice of copying from a printed text ( easily located, as I later located such plagiarism sources myself up until about 1990) which was usually available in the college or public libraries or in periodical files, such as microfilm, microfiche, etc.. I could also copy from another student's paper.

In short, the vastness of the Internet did not have to be searched to discover the source of plagiarism. The problems inherent in defeating the urge to cheat today are exponentially more difficult.

I applaud your son's teachers for their reading lists, and do not disparage his individual scholarship and effort.

I can only affirm that after 33 years in the classroom and contact with thousands of students and their papers, I discovered there is usually a contrast between what is assigned and what is read. Again, I feel the problem lies with the teacher and educational managers and curriculum designers, not students.

Over my lengthy career as an English teacher I never once blamed students for poor schools. Students are capable of a good deal more than they are asked for.

But we teachers have to ask, that is, require things of them in logical and practical ways. The same is true for defeating a natural urge to follow the path of least resistance-- i.e. plagiarize.

Then, most important, we must evaluate their performances honestly.

Teachers, particularly English teachers, are overworked and underpaid. I have always maintained that smaller classes automatically equal better results.

And let's be a little more honest about results. President Bush claims the purpose of the Iraq War is "bringing freedom."

The purpose of education used to be the removal of ignorance and "bringing literacy", whether from a page or a screen or by listening or whatever means. Those goals still need to be thrown into strong relief.

Take a look at the article whose URL I included in my post on the subject of "Offshoring Education."

The Internet offers articles containing many other comparisons of the U.S. educational system internationally, particularly on the secondary school and undergraduate levels, where we tend to be weakest. Graduate education in the U.S., on the other hand, is often sought after by a world-wide population of advanced students.

It's not a pretty picture in secondary and undergrad education, and the fault does not lie with the students.


--Z
Last edited by Zlatko Waterman on January 7th, 2007, 10:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.

mtmynd
Posts: 7752
Joined: August 15th, 2004, 8:54 pm
Location: El Paso

Post by mtmynd » January 7th, 2007, 4:26 pm

artguy: "my right wing born again brother in law burned my copy of War & Peace..."

must've been quite a fire. it's still burning in you. :wink:

User avatar
Zlatko Waterman
Posts: 1631
Joined: August 19th, 2004, 8:30 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Post by Zlatko Waterman » January 7th, 2007, 4:42 pm

I leave further discussion to the education and literacy experts.

After all, I'm a cartoonist.

As Christopher Marlowe put it:



Friar Barnadine: "Thou hast committed —"

Barabas: "Fornication—but that was in another country; and besides, the wench is dead."


--Z

User avatar
whimsicaldeb
Posts: 882
Joined: November 3rd, 2004, 4:53 pm
Location: Northern California, USA
Contact:

Post by whimsicaldeb » January 7th, 2007, 6:08 pm

Zlatko Waterman wrote:
whimsicaldeb wrote: Not all students are morons, cheats and/or lazy … back then, or now.
And of course, Deb, if you re-read my post, you know I said nothing of this kind:
Never said you did. I was extrapolating from the Dante's Inferno from SCHOOLSUCKS.COM and TERM PAPERS MONTHLY references in your post.

Zlatko Waterman wrote:I'm not sure what your pronoun "that" refers to in this sentence:
whimsicaldeb wrote: ...how that was true when we ourselves went to school as well
but if it refers to "ways to cheat" then the available "ways" during my undergraduate college years: 1963-1969 were extremely limited.

I had the choice of copying from a printed text ( easily located, as I later located such plagiarism sources myself up until about 1990) which was usually available in the college or public libraries or in periodical files, such as microfilm, microfiche, etc.. I could also copy from another student's paper.

Yes, my “that” does refer to ways to cheat.

And, you forgot one of the main basic ways - getting someone else to write your papers for you.
Zlatko Waterman wrote: In fact what I said, was this:

Teachers are often largely responsible for plagiarism. Often it is they who create the opportunity for plagiarism.

Designing an assignment for one's students which defeats plagiarism intrinsically is hard work. Most of my colleagues teaching at colleges like the ones I describe in my post avoided, and avoid today, well-thought-out assignments that are virtually plagiarism-proof.

In short, the vastness of the Internet did not have to be searched to discover the source of plagiarism. The problems inherent in defeating the urge to cheat today are exponentially more difficult.
Well... you can’t "defeat" the urge to cheat. No one can, the urge to cheat is universal to all. The best then that can ever be done is that it can be well countered, defer and/or resisted and set penalties if it is done; but it can never be defeated.

Nor should it, for our characters (for good or ill) are built upon how we facing this ever occurring urge.

Thus judging others value on their ability to design assignments geared to “defeating” cheating (aka plagiarism) may simply be too high (too idealistic of) an expectation. Instead, you do the best you can while knowing some things will get by. That’s life.
Zlatko Waterman wrote: I applaud your son's teachers for their reading lists, and do not disparage his individual scholarship and effort.
His teacher, like all teachers in California, was required to follow the California Department of Education Standards for Curriculum & Instruction and picked books from the List of Recommended Books for Grades 9-12 which is extensive:
http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/rl/ll/ap/litsearch.asp
(you know this...)

So yes, my son has a good English teacher … and so do many, many other students.

I think you’re too hard on teachers (maybe even yourself). The facts are plain and never changing… teachers like students and people in general: all run the gambit between being very good to very poor. Again ~ That’s life.
Zlatko Waterman wrote:
I can only affirm that after 33 years in the classroom and contact with thousands of students and their papers, I discovered there is usually a contrast between what is assigned and what is read. Again, I feel the problem lies with the teacher and educational managers and curriculum designers, not students.

Over my lengthy career as an English teacher I never once blamed students for poor schools. Students are capable of a good deal more than they are asked for.
Well there in lies another problem … you're not being balanced in your blaming.

Many children are indeed to blame for the poor condition of schools; lighting fires in trash cans; spray painting the walls; bullying others (students & teachers alike); calling in bomb scares; disrespecting authority figures to name the main ones. If you only focus on teachers … you’ve lost the ability to see things form a balanced perspective.

Teacher can assign any task they wish to a student but they can’t force them to do any of them, even when they know for a fact that doing them would help them both now and later, anymore than anymore than anyone can bring a horse to water and then force it to drink even when they know it needs the fluids.

If the willingness of a student isn't there, and indeed if the willingness of the student it towards disruption and destruction … to singularly decide that students are 'never once to (be) blamed' is simply idiotic, idealistic, and part of the continued problem instead of the solutions.

Students have their responsibilities to the conditions as well as their own learn, not just teachers, the administrations and goverment. To not hold students responsible as necessary is to keep them 'spoiled.' (refer: your article reference)
Zlatko Waterman wrote: It's not a pretty picture in secondary and undergrad education, and the fault does not lie with the students.
--Z
No it isn’t – much work is needed.

But the problems are not solely that of the teachers; the students, the administration, even the parents, and our government have their parts in the problems - as well as the solutions. All are in need of updating.

I don’t know why you’re so hard on teachers, but I do wish you’d lighten up a bit … imo, you’re not being fair and instead being overly harsh/critical.

Totenkopf

Post by Totenkopf » January 7th, 2007, 6:52 pm

B BbbBb BBbb Buchbrennen ?
Ja.

Something there is to be said for bookburnings, especially of bad fiction. Pop fiction is booj-wah man. Even Karlo Marx would like toss a few potboilers on the fiction funeral pyre methinx....maybe some victorian drama as well..Does Off the Road get tossed on there or not? Hard to say. Of course Imams the world round would torch Einstein along with Gertrude Stein, and that would be in error--yet so many putative liberals continue to support muslims, either explicitly or not, when those same muslims would have no problem disposing of many books (not to say like musical masterpieces) considered to be essential to western democracy (you can be sure the Imams would eliminate most English lit. and marxist texts, probably even sociology and western science, from the Lie-Berries)

User avatar
Axanderdeath
Posts: 954
Joined: December 20th, 2004, 9:24 pm
Location: montreal or somewhere in canada or the world

Post by Axanderdeath » January 7th, 2007, 7:57 pm

you all read too much. All I read is porno and dective novels. that is all you need to read. I think this generation has too many instant and text messages to take the time to read a big novel writen by some foolish drunk, and the there is all the boring talk that comes with reading... no reading is not something that my generation a certainly the generation after mine is about. so yes it is 1984--watch out--ha ha ha--or LOL yeah thats it!!! ttyl
thus spoke G.A.P.

User avatar
Zlatko Waterman
Posts: 1631
Joined: August 19th, 2004, 8:30 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Contact:

Post by Zlatko Waterman » January 7th, 2007, 8:19 pm

Deb:

It's easier to be fair on the outside.

I do commend your interest in your son's education.

And I rest on Marlowe's apothegm.


--Z

User avatar
Doreen Peri
Site Admin
Posts: 14601
Joined: July 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Doreen Peri » January 8th, 2007, 3:22 pm

Geoff, you crack me up! ;)

User avatar
Axanderdeath
Posts: 954
Joined: December 20th, 2004, 9:24 pm
Location: montreal or somewhere in canada or the world

Post by Axanderdeath » January 8th, 2007, 7:07 pm

i was just kidding. was not trying to be rude;...
thus spoke G.A.P.

User avatar
bohonato
Posts: 412
Joined: December 24th, 2004, 3:44 pm
Location: austin, tx

Post by bohonato » January 9th, 2007, 12:26 am

To have access to literature, world literature, was to escape the prison of national vanity, of philistinism, of compulsory provincialism, of inane schooling, of imperfect destinies and bad luck. Literature was the passport to enter a larger life; that is, the zone of freedom.

Literature was freedom. Especially in a time in which the values of reading and inwardness are so strenuously challenged, literature is freedom.

-Susan Sontag


Thank God I grew up in an area that valued our local library. I probably spent more time there than in my house. Man, this just makes me sad.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest