If the whole world could've voted...

[izeveryboyin]

I know this is not as significant now given the wide margin by which our current President-Elect beat the septuagenarian Arizona senator for the presidency, but I found these on M.I.A's myspace blog and thought it was just so interesting:

http://www.economist.com/vote2008/

http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/gallup/

http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/ ... under.html

http://www.betavote.com/

I wonder if, had I seen these before the election, I might've have been a lot more surprised, but it's still kind of a shock even now. I know that America has been a lot more racist than most countries but this shows that we are making at least some strides, and I think other countries respect us a little more for that. Or at least... I hope so.

END.

[bennie2]

I don't know if America is a more racist country than most... I think a country with such a huge history of slavery (I know it was the UK who sold and transported the "cattle" of Africans but they lived and worked in the southern states and West Indies) is going to have a greater level of tension than other places.

The striking thing for me is that some people haven't gotten over this idea that these black men and women, these slaves, are still a second class citizen, still no more than a bug to be swatted.

I thought, surely to fuck Obama will win this!? Surely they won't vote this two-foot-from-his-death-bed, grey-haired elephant beast! Surely! You did vote in (sort of) and then re-elect Bush; the rampaging fucktard, smacktard, idiot child of a poster child for a republican wet dream nightmare.

When he was elected though, wow! I shed an overwhelmed tear for you lot (America, you lot, not, black America, you lot). I thought: this will be good for them. This teenage nation will benefit here!

I know the "black thing" is important. It shouldn't be but it is. That aside, he's a young, intelligent, engaging and handsome in a Kennedy sort of way man. I'm excited for America.

Do I respect you more as a nation? Here's my worry...

It's such a massive overhaul. A. Black. US. President. Think of Doc Brown's shock in Back to the Future when he learns that Reagan (an actor in 1955) is President in 1985.

The son of an African man will be President of the most powerful country in the world.

Someone in a UK news show I watch commented that he isn't a "classic US black man"... huh?! Well, "he has no slave history in his family..." What makes you black, apparently, is your ties to a horror show history, not your skin. Idiot! But the black thing is such an issue that it creates these comments from people; people not ready yet!

Oh, yes, my worry... I can imagine an assassination here. It's such a shock to the system of so many idiot racists with more bullets than IQ brain cells that I worry about the length of Obama's tenure... Will he see his next election?

I'm ranting now. I'll respect your country more if they give this guy a chance to fix the shit storm he's inheriting.

[stilltrucking]

I notice that Poland went 75% to McCain and 20% to Obama.

And I noticed that 56% of Palestinians think the election will make no difference to their country.

Just curious Bennie, are there any European countries pledged to use military force against Iran to keep them from getting a nuclear bomb? To protect Israel by military force. To prevent another holocaust of the Jews?

Both candidates during the election were asked if Iran was a threat to the security of the United States and both ducked the question. The first word out of both their mouths was "Israel"

But at least Obama said he would talk to Iran first before the bombing started. I notice Iran went 80% for Obama.

Just curious has Germany, France, the UK or any other European country pledged to use military force to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons? Or is that our burden?

I have read that Iran now has a missile that can reach Eastern Europe, and bigger farther-reaching missiles to come after.

You would think that Europeans would be more interested. But perhaps I am misinformed.


One more thing Bennie I look at the world and every bleeding wretched disease ridden trouble spot seems to have been a former colony of a European power. Look at Africa for example. UK, Belgium, France, Germany and Italy all took the wealth and left the malaria. Maybe that is not slavery but what the hell is it? And it happened in the 20th century not the 19th. So where is Europe's moral superiority?

Sorry did not mean to rant at you personally, all that shit happened before you were born.

[izeveryboyin]

Bennie... *sigh* I am very disappointed when someone says they don't think America is a racist country. Don't get me wrong, I recognize the milestone here... but I am not going to lie and say a major reason why Obama is able to all himself "President-Elect" is because proud black people went out to vote in RECORD numbers. Because as many whites as there were out there claiming there support in the face of the media or something of that sort, there were just as many of them for the McCain camp. Perhaps America doesn't have as long of a history f slavery as some other countries, but America is 200 hundred years old. And We have had slavery since almost the very beginning. Then when slavery was abolished, there was the immediate inception of Jim Crow laws and segregation followed by YEARS of protest just to be able to do something as simple as sit in the first seat of a bus. And maybe it's because I'm a black American that I see the racism more than some of the white Americans might... but I think any open-minded person can probably take a good luck at the culture and history of this culture and know it for what it really is. There is still segregation in this country, it's just MUCH more subtle, but I won't get into that. Too much of a fire-starter for me.

The second class citizen comment needs further explaining from you, I think. You might have trying to defend my honor, I don't know... but it comes off harsh...

I think it's pretty much common belief that Bush snuck in the first time, and he won the 2nd time mainly because when a country is at war, a lot of times they feel it would be in poor judgment to switch leaders, not only that but the fact that John Kerry really did a shit of a job proving his case and seeming competent. My own mother, a staunch democrat all her life turned tail and voted Bush. That being said, do you mean that it was good for us in that we learned a massive lesson? Because if that's the case then now you're just teasing us.

As for your last comments, by electing him, I think that's sort of what we've done, no? Giving him a chance to fix the shit-storm. And you never said whether you respect this country more or not... you went off on a tangent about the whole black thing. Although I suppose in the end, I don't really care... I think more of my country now (not too much, mind) and that's what matters. And lots of other Americans do too.

St... I noticed the Poland bit... but some countries... well... it wasn't much of a surprise that they felt they way they did.

The whole nuclear thing is tough... on the one hand a small part of me kind of feels like we've necked in too much, but then I realize that nuclear weapons is a GLOBAL issue. And everyone should care who has them, and what they're doing with them, because the possibility of devastation and destruction is much too great.

And I think you're on to something in the end their, the Haitians owe their every poverty to the French, the Scottish owe their stolen heritage to the English... Even as far as the Caribbean, the Bahamas... St. Maarten owes allegiance to both France and the Netherlands. Definite food for thought.

--k

[Doreen Peri]

Almost everybody I know voted for Obama. I know many more white people than black people. Shrug. I guess that's 'cause I'm white. But I know people of all races and seriously, everyone I talked to about it voted for Obama. Obama didn't win the election because he's black. He won because he's Obama.

Yeah there's a lot of racism in America but Bennie was saying there's racism all over the world. I believe he's right. I was brought up not to see color. I'm color blind.

Some black people I've known hate white people. Period. I think that's sad, myself. I dated a black man for a bit... we went out dancing... he was so pissed off that we didn't get served right away when there was a throng of 2 feet of people waiting at the bar. He swore the delay was because we were a mixed couple and the white bartenders didn't want to serve us. He was delusional. The bartenders were busy! We had long talks about racism. I taught him how to read. He didn't know how to read. I used "The Diary of Malcolm X" as the reading text book because it was a topic he was interested in. It worked. Anyway, he had a huge chip on his shoulder about white people. He automatically thought they were against him. Where did this come from? Hatred handed down from generation to generation. I told him... "you know you who's bigoted don't you? YOU are bigoted! You don't like ALL white people just because a FEW white people from many generations ago had black slaves. Well guess what? I don't like those white people either!" We had a good laugh. But he remained bigoted.

I hate being glared at by black people who clearly hate me because of the color of my skin. Yeah it works both ways, K. Happens often.

At any rate, just sharing a story with you. Those are interesting links you posted. It doesn't surprise me one bit that the whole world would want Obama to win. We are blessed to still have our country and for his victory! I just love him. He's an amazing man .... with a beautiful vision.... a man of integrity and honesty. I'm honored to be alive to witness and be part of this revolution.. because that's what it is.

[stilltrucking]

I kind of resent the feel good pat ourselves on the back because we elected a black man media hype bullshit.
I think it distracts from who Obama is. The most able man to be elected president in my life time.

[stilltrucking]

If I was black I would be proud of Obama. Hell I was proud of Joe Lieberman when Gore picked him for vice president.

I have seen more white racism than I have black. Maybe that is just because there are more white people than black.

Sometimes it is not good to be too color blind Doreen. I got hurt bad because of being too color blind. I was a fool not to see it coming. I should have hauled my almost white ass out of there.

It is best to take people one at a time as they come and not make judgments on race.

.

I think I am done pontificating for the day
sorry

[izeveryboyin]

Okay, I'm going to pull an Lrod here: D, I love and have enormous respect for you in all things. That being said, I think I have to let you know that I never believe it when people say they are color blind. If you were color blind you probably wouldn't even have shared that story. You wouldn't have been able to notice the black people who are racist against whites. Just my opinion. And almost everybody I know voted for him too and my acquaintances are pretty evenly split between races... but I know better than to believe that there weren't a ton of people out there who didn't vote for him just because he has an African father. We're not THAT progressive. And I certainly know that there is racism in other countries, if not, there would never have been a holocaust, or the whole Darfur thing, etc. But the basis of this country has been deeply rooted in hypocrisy, racism, and classicism... and it still is, we have just grown a little more mature about it. We were one of the last countries to abolish slavery, and I'm one of "those" black people that truly believes that one of the main reasons Lincoln abolished it was to have strong black soldiers for the war. You can take the girl out of the black panther party but you can't take the black panther party out of the girl. LOL. I never said racism doesn't happen both ways. I am not color blind. I don't know any blacks who are. And I have seen many people mistreat whites for something they had no hand in. I used to do it myself once. But like ST said, there has been more of a history of white on black hate. And honestly, I do think that it perpetuated a lot of the hatred that some blacks have for whites. Not saying it's right, but it is what it is. And I hope some day we will get to a point where none of this exists but I gotta tell you, my expectations aren't high.

Bennie, reading through the post I realize it did sound a bit like a personal attack. Didn't mean for it come out that way... but I'm just very opinionated on this topic, and I certainly appreciate your point of view. I totally believe in the whole Voltaire philosophy. No matter how hard it may be to uphold it.

St... I have to agree with you again (shocking, I know) that it can be very dangerous to be color blind. For both sides. I won't lie and say that part of the pride in Obama stems from the fact that he is a black man. An educated, cultured, well-spoken and distinguished black man. But I knew him most for his work in Illinois state politics and I admired him for what he did to help make positive change in this state, particularly with the health care programs... as best he could given the now obvious corruption of the governor. *sigh* And I am in awe of his fast ascension through politics given his relatively unknown status up until the 2004 national convention, and even after that. I remember a poll I put on another site right before Obama announced his candidacy, and there was just rumor of a run, about whether or not anyone knew who Obama was, and surprising amount of them said no. So I am proud of him for all of his achievements... and yes, the fact that he achieved them as a black man.

--k

[Doreen Peri]

Kayla.. I disagree. I truly am color blind. I have friends of all races. The color of a person's skin doesn't make one iota of difference to me. It's who they are that counts. And I disagree that I wouldn't have noticed when other people are NOT color blind if I truly were color blind. How can you NOT notice when someone is blatantly bigoted? It's clear as day. Especially when you're color blind.

I respect all races and the cultures that go with them. When I say I'm color blind, I don't mean I don't SEE that someone is not my same race or has a different culture than me. It means the color of their skin and their culture is not a factor one bit in my opinion of them. Make sense? I hope so.

But like ST said, there has been more of a history of white on black hate. And honestly, I do think that it perpetuated a lot of the hatred that some blacks have for whites. Not saying it's right, but it is what it is.

Sure, there is a lot of that history. But it wasn't ME who took part in that history! I had no part of it and I wouldn't ever have a part of it. So, I don't buy "it is what it is." I reject it. I'm not about to take ANY responsibility for something other people have done just because they happen to share my racial heritage. Nope. Not me. I didn't do it and I don't expect to be judged by it. It's not fair and it needs to stop. Period.

Unlike the man I dated who was clearly adamant about his opinion that white people are to be hated, I don't hate anybody. (Well, obviously he didn't hate me or he wouldn't have dated me, but Kayla, he associated me with those who owned slaves just because I'm white! ! Isn't that completely bogus!? Yes, it is! I never owned a slave. LOL..geesh

Also, don't know what you mean by "pull an Lrod" on me. Do you mean disagree with me? Sure Lrod and I have debates online sometimes. Everybody does. That's the beauty of online. Being able to discuss different views.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I respect and care about you, too, and I fully agree that there is bigotry in the US. It's sad. Hopefully the human race is evolving.

[izeveryboyin]

When I said "pull and Lrod" I meant I was going to lay a compliment on you followed by a criticism. Nothing to do with the relationship between the two of you. I mad a comment in a previous post about how he does that to everybody. I was trying to start off on a light note, not open up another disagreement. My mistake.

As for the color blind issue, I understand your view more, but I still think that "color blind" is really not the right term. And your saying "I have friends of all races" SUGGESTS that maybe you aren't. By definition, you wouldn't even notice. And didn't you just say that you know mostly white people? Those don't really sound like the comments of someone who is color blind. It does not mean you are not an accepting person. I think the reality is that everyone in this country sees color. It's how we were raised. There are fortunately a few people like you who have learned to evolve a bit and be open-minded. I believe that who a person really is most certainly matters more than any outward appearances, but I'd be a fool to believe that in some degree I don't judge people. Everyone does, however subtle that judgment may be. I respect that you are open-minded and appreciate it, but it's a very rare quality.

As for the "it is what it is" comment, I certainly don't mean that it should continue. I said in that very comment that that doesn't make it right. I was offering up an example of one of the reasons why that kind of hatred persists and I was saying "it is what is" because for some people, the reality is that it is just NOT going to change.
I most certainly am not blaming you for every sin of the Caucasian race or asking you even to take responsibility for it, nor will I ever. That's a ridiculous point of view that some simple-mided blacks have. I don't share it, but the racism of whites against blacks is not fair and it needs to stop. Period. Still, I accept the fact that for some people, it just won't.

Obviously the guy you dated had some issues, but not every black person harbors that kind of supremacist bullshit. I NEVER said that kind of behavior is okay. I'm just saying it's been apart of this country and is most likely gonna be forever. I hope the human race is evolving, sure, and I think that to some degree, it is, but I think the progress will always be slow, and stunted as more situations present themselves.

Thanks for commenting, being candid and honest, and respecting me enough to read the whole thing.

--k

[stilltrucking]

What I mean when I say color blind.

I used to work with some good men, it was very intense we were all humping frieght on a dock. After a while you cease to notice anyone's color. I have had combat veterans tell me something similiar, when in a dangereous situation there was no racism everybody pulled together. Something like that.

But if you find yourself stopped at a red light on Martin Luther King Blvd at three in the morning, it is best that you keep in mind where you are. And it is best not to get out of your car and try to reason with someone who is beating on your car with a two by four. . Haul your white ass out of there.

Never was a fucking fool like me.



I am sure that did not help.

[izeveryboyin]

No, no, you make a valid point. Sometimes it just isn't okay to ignore color. I don't think there is any MLK drive in any city where a white person, and even a black person shouldn't be aware of their surroundings. And there's no sense being color blind in a situation like that, because they most certainly won't be.

--k

[mtmynd]

The world is in support of Obama on a much, much larger scale than Dubya ever was or could hope to be. That would mean to me the world is not a racist world, despite pockets of racism here and there. On the contrary, the world was/is racist towards Bush, if hatred has another name.

[Doreen Peri]

Thanks for the conversation, Kayla.

I guess we disagree on one very important basic point. I don't agree that it won't stop. I believe that it WILL stop. Probably not in our lifetimes but still. I truly believe that the human race will evolve and racism will cease to exist.

Yeah, I read every word you post. Of course.

As for what appears to be conflicting statements from me that I know mostly white people and that I have friends of all races, the statements are not at all conflicting. *Currently* most of the people in my neighborhood and who I work with are white. But so what? I DO know lots of people from various different races. At one point back in the 80's, I was an apartment manager and my son and I resided in one of the 195 apartments in the complex and we were one of only about 10 white families there. I was in the minority for several years and experienced the prejudice some black people have against whites. (yes, just some, just as only some white people are prejudiced). At the same time, during that period, most ALL of my friends were black or hispanic. Many of my neighbors actually liked me despite the color of my skin. (joking, Kayla... but seriously, most of my friends were not white at that time). It has to do with where you live. I've lost touch with most of my friends from that era though. It was 20 years ago.

Yeah, I just brought up the issues the guy had because it effected me a great deal. I never could figure it out. I hope he's grown and doesn't have those issues any more. It's really very sad. I never said that the majority of blacks feel that way.

At any rate, you're right... racism has been a part of the US for many years but I truly believe things have changed a great deal and are still changing for the better. People are more aware than ever, more acceptant.

Perhaps you and I do have different definitions of color blind. I tried to explain in my last post what I meant by it but I guess I didn't do a good job of it.

Trying again... I see people as people. A person is a person, not at all defined by their race in regards to their value. Sure, race is part of who we are, but to me it doesn't make any difference what a person's skin color is or what culture they come from, what their heritage is, other than in a positive way.... I find various cultures quite interesting. The more I know about a person's culture, the richer my experience is with them. So, by color blind, I mean there is nothing negative associated with a person's skin color plus yeah, sitting together in a room of people from various races, I truly do not *see* skin color, I don't define people that way. I just see........ PEOPLE. *smile*

Sometimes I worry about my writing skills. I hope this makes sense.

Obama will be very good for the country and the world. I just adore him.... as a person.

[izeveryboyin]

MTM... we are making strides... but racism is most certainly not dead. What the world and even this country thought of Bush was based on his apparent incompetence. It''s not him I hate, it's his policies, his methods, and his views. I don't know him from Adam.

D... I understand your definition, I understood it in the first place. I am saying that I don't agree with it... you offered your opinion so I countered. I will not say anything more than that. I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion and your ability to say it. But I don't want this to turn into anything big. I never meant for this to be a race thing. I was just sharing something I thought was fascinating. In fact I think I'd rather you delete this whole thread for me, please. The purpose behind it was completely lost.

--k