Milgram's Experiments on Obedience

[perezoso]

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psycholo ... iment.html

"The shock generator that the "teacher" was told to operate had 30 switches in 15 volt increments, each switch was labeled with a voltage ranging from 15 up to 450 volts. Each switch also had a rating, ranging from "slight shock" to "danger: severe shock". The final two switches being labeled "XXX". The experiment was conducted in a scenario where the "learner" was in another room but the "teacher" was made aware of the "actor-learner's" discomfort by poundings on the wall.

No further shocks were actually delivered - the "teacher" was not aware that the "learner" in the study was actually an actor who was intended, by the requirements of the experiment, to use his talents to indicate increasing levels of discomfort as the "teacher" administered increasingly severe electric shocks in response to the mistakes made by the "learner".

The experimenter was present in the same room as the "teacher" and whenever "teachers" asked whether increased shocks should be given he or she was verbally encouraged by the experimenter to continue. In this scenario 65% of the "teachers" obeyed orders to punish the learner to the very end of the 450-volt scale! No subject stopped before reaching 300 volts.

At times, the worried "teachers" questioned the experimenter, asking who was responsible for any harmful effects resulting from shocking the learner at such a high level. Upon receiving the answer that the experimenter assumed full responsibility, teachers seemed to accept the response and continue shocking, even though some were obviously extremely uncomfortable in doing so."

[hester_prynne]

Is this for real?
Pere?
Why are people such idiots?

H

[perezoso]

Yes, this is for real. Milgram's experiments were repeated with hundreds of people in different locales. The results varied slightly, and there are some concerns regarding the reliability of the data, but Milgram's general finding was that under a controlled setting a majority of people (playing role of "teacher") would deliver a severe shock --even a lethal one--to another hidden person (playing role of "learner") when an authority told them that the person was making "mistakes" and needed the punishment (the shocks were bogus, but the "teacher" did not know this) . This study--now a classic in social psych.-- was meant to demonstrate that most humans--as for instance in nazi germany-- would obey "orders" even if such orders were inhumane, sadistic or murderous. There are other similiar studies.

It's a nice starting point for those inclined to literary or philosophical endeavors.

[hester_prynne]

Indeed, is it fear, or a will to live that makes us give up our power, regardless of what we believe.

literary, philosophical endeavors?

Not me!

[perezoso]

Milgram's writing is all about "Hitler's willing executioners"; i.e., tyranny and totalitarianism are not just the responsibility of a Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or, yeah, Bush/Rumsfeld --but the thousands of obedient robotic sadists who obey and carry out the tyrant's orders. Milgram's study also demonstrates something like a "herd mind" or collective psychopathology.

"Happiness" is itself a sort of mass delusion.........

But every cloud has a silver lining right, sis?

Sowwy to be so morose, but I think humans need much more "atrocity awareness"......

[hester_prynne]

What I want to know, is how to be acutely aware of "atrocities" and still be motivated, happy go lucky, and carefree.
This is what I want.
I just don't quite know how to get there.

Any ideas? Philosophy links? Literary works?

[Axanderdeath]

this is so relivant for today's political scene. lets say that bush is the "experimenter" and the american people are the "teachers" and the iraqi people are the "learners"


Geoffrey AlexaNDR PARSONS...

[perezoso]

Dear Hestrude Prynnstein--

In addition to non-fiction and psychological stuff such as this study, I tend to read pulpy stuff, dear: noir, cyberpunk (William Gibson, PK Dick) even Conan Doyle. I still happen to think that Hound of the Baskervilles or Valley of Fear is equal to say Dickens or most Conrad stories.

"The Fields of Arcady are dead" as WB Yeats said


http://www.modestyarbor.com/destinationmorgue.html

[Axanderdeath]

perezoso did you not think what I had to said had some validity? Really? I am not trying to liken the iraci people to actors. Did you not see what I was trying to say?

i think you should watch the 'daily show' some great political staire... Really man I thought that was a very insightful comment pere.

[perezoso]

Perhaps. The right wing certainly has a sadistic element, and most "conservatives" are very big on respecting authority and obeying the law. But I'm not sure it's a close parallel, though soldiers everywhere are asked to do things which are quite unethical or even brutal. And people should see the casualties; when 'Nam was going down, the newcasts showed some pretty gruesome footage. Not any more.

I don't watch much Tube, 'cept Michael Palin's bizarre shows, Samurai Jack sometimes or Aeon Flux reruns. Is that show with Jon Stewart? He's sort of entertaining I guess.

[Axanderdeath]

Perhaps. The right wing certainly has a sadistic element, and most "conservatives" are very big on respecting authority and obeying the law. But I'm not sure it's a close parallel, though soldiers everywhere are asked to do things which are quite unethical or even brutal. And people should see the casualties; when 'Nam was going down, the newcasts showed some pretty gruesome footage. Not any more.

I don't watch much Tube, 'cept Michael Palin's bizarre shows, Samurai Jack sometimes or Aeon Flux reruns. Is that show with Jon Stewart? He's sort of entertaining I guess.

abudaba jail (exuse the spelling) was that not the defense for that pere?

And it is the
daily show with john stwart (again-the spelling.)

[e_dog]

check out also the so-called Stanford Prison Experiement from i think the early seventies. a social psych prof. from Stanford, perhaps the very one who delivers those ultra bizarro social psych community education programs on late nite cable, had this expereiement where Stanford students in the experiemtn were asigned randomly to the role of prisoner or guard and the guards ended up being super sadistic (as far as one would expect) and they actually had to call off the experiemtn beofre completing the time frame because they were getting too abusive.

[stilltrucking]

Is this for real?
Pere?
Why are people such idiots?

because when they can't find white rats for their experiments, they use college sophomores

The power of uniforms and priestly robes
the teachers were wearing white lab coats
I don't think about them as teachers but scientists in
their priestly robes
white lab coats
it is about sheep,
it is about crusades
it is about the "improvers of mankind"

[judih]

The Stanford Prison Experiment - Simulation

Here's a link to the whole thing with some pictures.
Who first showed me this link?
It was appalling then but relevant to Abu Gaith





http://www.prisonexp.org/

[e_dog]

illustrative typos in my last response: i mistyped "experiment" as "experiement" but it should have been "expeeriement" which is apt b/c that case and others put the "eerie" in "experiment."

yeah, judih, no doubt that study is very much relevant to Abu Ghraib abuses and will hopefully be reexamined for whatever insights can be provided.