Good Grief, Gaza

[mtmynd]

how easy it is to forget the African misery and wars. if Africa is listening, i apologize to you. i am unable to comprehend the amount of tragedy and deadly illness along with the starvation and insane genocide committed by your own peoples. it does not sound real, if i may use that word. all these things, Africa, that has happened to you and continues to happen to you, seems like a work of fiction only because i cannot fully grasp how so much negativity can happen to your people. it boggles my little mind to begin a journey of understanding something so vast and so horrible, that i find myself drawing away and barricading myself from your reality. no, it's not a fair thing for me to do. it's not even a fair thing to happen to you. and that is the larger mystery - why you, Africa? your enormous expanse dwarfs my meager contributions of understanding, your huge population requires so much and so quickly, that i don't know if it can be accomplished within my own lifetime, although if you will accept my prayers to which ever god will listen, that i can offer you. perhaps it will take some divine intervention to bring health and prosperity to you, o! holy Africa, birthplace of our collective humanity.

[Nazz]

you are ill informed Cecil

Yeah Jack, but wait a second. Cec only said sixty-year conflicts between neighbors aren't particularly common, not that Israel's conflict was the only one. I think there's some truth in Cecil's observations. I don't read it as taking sides, or that centuries of religion and history don't factor in also, only that 60 years could stretch into hundreds if the whole thing is retaliation-based. I think Israel's government has done much to make the situation worse over the years, but I won't argue against the other side being even more at fault. And frankly, I think Bush's military aggression in the Middle East led to an increase in extremism in the region and helped both Ahmadinejad and Hamas gain power. Oh hell, I guess it's more common than I ever could have imagined. Never mind.

Oh just ignore me. I've never had to live in a war zone, so what the hell do I know about it? Then again maybe the bigger picture, if not every right or precise answer, can only be seen from outside. A bit of an open question.

What have US Presidents since Carter (and to a lesser extent, Clinton) honestly tried to do to bring about peace in such a dangerous conflict? Not enough, in my opinion. Bush-ko prattles on about some "road map", all the while saber-rattling and invading Muslim nations for hegemonic gain and to enrich their corporate sponsors. Some road map. The world isn't stupid. The world knows better.

Even in Iraq, you can say that some positive came out of the initial invasion, eg Saddam's ouster and at least some attempt at rebuilding, as sluggish and half-assed as it was early on. But the true motives were far more sketchy than the advertised "freedom" and how does one justify years of bloody occupation, with the US expectation that come hell or high water it would establish a permanent military presence despite its earlier promises to the contrary? The world isn't stupid. Actions, ongoing or otherwise, have consequences.

[stilltrucking]

Cec only said sixty-year conflicts between neighbors aren't particularly common, not that Israel's conflict was the only one.

Cecil only said they are not particularly common. I think they are very common. That is what I was saying.

I think Israel's government has done much to make the situation worse over the years, but I won't argue against the other side being even more at fault.

I lost my illusions about the government of Israel a long time ago mnaz.
They have their own Rumsfelds and Bushes.

This guy here for example


He was the genius behind the last Lebanese war in 2006. That is him with the lens caps on his binoculars inspecting the troops during maneuvers. Not bad enough but the Manchester Guardian said he was nodding as the general beside him explained what was going on. Not like he said whoops and took the lens caps off., he watched the whole frigging show with the lens caps on.

That was the war where they used cluster bombs on civilian targets. But they said it was a tragic mistake. They got the cluster bombs from us with the stipulation that they be used on military targets.

Yes we could go back hundreds of years like in the Balkans where the blood feuds go back five hundred years.

No need to do that with Israel and Palestine. We only need to go back to world war one to see the source of this.



Do I sound like I am attacking Cecil?

I will tell you what I think is so special about this war. It is being fought on Biblical land. Israel has political parties that make our wing nuts look like cub scouts. They have an election coming up, not sure if this has to do with that. Also I read something about the price of oil and Iran's economic woes, nothing like a war in the Middle East the boost the price.
That is if Hamas takes its orders from Tehran.

Who the hell fucking knows what is what.

I spend too much time reading about this stuff
I need a fast.

Here are a few of my bookmarks on Gaza if you would like to check it out

[Nazz]

It sounds like we're mostly on the same page Jack. And honestly, this stuff is so distasteful to me that I have a hard time forcing myself to study up on it. I used to think of the "holy land" conflict as a purely religious one, and that will always remain perhaps the most unique (and perhaps chilling) factor in this particular conflict.

But ancient religious tensions aside, I also think the world is sorting out the militarized wreckage of the 20th Century, which may not ever be fully resolved. It's fairly clear that you can trace various chain reactions of conflict from the first to the second world wars, into the Balkans and Palestine and many other places, and through all the wretched carnage of the Cold War spread far and wide. Why do you think that (pre-'92 at least) Saddam actually had w.m.d? Rumsfeld shook the SOB's hand. So many "deals with the devil" were made that how could there not be any blowback?

The effects of colonization go back farther, and I haven't thought as much about that. I know the relationships were exploitive, and they disrupted development of the colonized. It's something I should better understand. Twain wrote on the subject over a hundred years ago. I never said I knew everything. I have much to learn I suppose.

[stilltrucking]

Maybe it is a papist plot for all I know mark

We got to get all those Jews on the bus.

The messiah will be here anyday.

The twentieth century was spent sorting out the dirty deals of the 19th century.

e_dog said it can all be traced back to the Frankly-Prussian wars.

Cecil I just read we get an extra second this year, because the earth is slowing down, I hope you enjoy yours.


whack me upside the head with a two by four if I was attacking you personally
I just enjoy exchanging thoughts with you
it is helpful to me.

I liked the poem Cecil
I can relate

[Nazz]

No problem, Jack. I like to talk about it sometimes too.

Another problem is that aforementioned technology-- not only in terms of weapons with apocalyptic destructive power, but in terms of the shorter attention spans fostered by blip-vert corporate-sponsored media.

The Maine? The Liberty?
We're lucky if anyone even remembers the Cole.
I'm just amazed (and distressed) at how easily hundreds of millions of people can be swayed by images and talking points repeated over and over on mass media. Disturbing.

[stilltrucking]

I was more trying to offer judih some words of comfort than anything. If I was where she is I would be grateful for any respite from the rocket attacks, and if I was in Gaza I would be very grateful for a respite from the F-16's,

I never met a cease fire I did not like.

I believe in peace,
we say wars break out
but in truth it is peace that breaks out
war is our natural state.
peace an anomaly

Yeah it was a little insensitive for the Israeli government to put the ships bell and wheel of the torpedo boat that attacked the uss liberty in an honored place in their naval museum. They had a reason but still it seemed insensitve to me.



Who will save my poeple from themselves?

[Nazz]

Yes. I think maybe I've come across as insensitive to judih's situation at times when her home is threatened like this. Never was really my intent.

Interesting philosophical question about our 'natural state'. War has never seemed to me like our natural state. Most humans have a natural revulsion to war, to organized mass-murder. War seems more like something every generation is told is inevitable, with all kinds of solemnity and sacred honor in courage attached thereto, and that is basically that. But is it really? I've no doubt that individual aggression (in a more specific sense) may be genetically coded to varying degrees, but is institutional war, which seems much more anonymous and random in nature, really strictly a 'genetic' or 'natural' thing? I have my doubts.

Who will save humans from themselves? Only those same humans. Somehow. Some way.

[Arcadia]

difficult topic to write about... sad news ... and oddly frecuent during festivities... I hope judih is ok!

Who will save humans from themselves? Only those same humans. Somehow. Some way.

I like that!

[stilltrucking]

Yes who will save humans from themselves? Good question. Some people think it is Jesus Christ. All I wanted from Jesus is to save me from myself. Not to save the world.

Depeche Mode, I know nothing about them except I like that song My Own Personal Jesus. I got mine, George W Bush has his. Barack Obama got his. We will see how Obama's will play out.

Most humans have a natural revulsion to war, to organized mass-murder.

Yes most humans do, but most humans also have a need to have a leader.
We are sheep. Well except for us North Americans, we are rugged individualists. Ha.

We are born to follow, so it takes only one man with a murderous vision to spark that wide streak of violence in our nature
Nature, now there is word mnaz. Man's nature, we are culture bearers which is unique in nature I think.

This extro biological womb we are born into that enculturates every generation into the the genius and madness of previous generations. Our biological evolution chugs along at a snail's pace but culture can evolve over night. What ever happened to the age of Aquarius?

I googled "what ever happened to the age of Aquarius" to see if anyone else was curious. I found this
Whatever Happened to the Age of Aquarius?

By the way Stalin is back
and there are many H*tler wannabes still walking about waiting for their time and chance.

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[Nazz]

Yes... individual aggression may be somewhat a part of human nature, but the institution of war seems more cultural, more learned to me, which would imply that it can perhaps be "unlearned" to some extent as well.

As a very young boy I may have wanted to punch another kid for doing me wrong, but it wasn't a natural instinct to organize a random bunch of other very young kids and march together with with weapons against other random bunches of very young kids. That concept had to be taught by my elders.

[stilltrucking]

That concept had to be taught by my elders.

Plenty of teachers


http://www.themwambafamilyfoundation.or ... 17301.html

Did you ever play war as a kid.
It was fun to play war. Bang bang you are dead. Fall down and giggle. Play dead with a smile on your face. Have you seen any good war movies lately?


I just want the killing to stop. It always does. Sooner or later. It stops for a while.

If I remember correctly there was a hundred years war once. But who even remembers anymore why or what for.

Sure culture can change and it does.

Meanwhile I want the bombing to stop. I want the rockets to stop.

I read somewhere that Israel thought they should get their licks in before Obama takes office.

I read somewhere that Israel wanted to get this out of the way before their next election scheduled in February.

I have no opoinions of my own, all I know about what is happening is what I read in the papers.

I read Hamas takes their orders from Iran and this is all about the price of oil.

There is always hope for a change. Ike went to Korea and ended the war. Or so the myth says. Maybe Obama will go to Gaza.

[stilltrucking]

Footnote about war, nature, and evolution

Wired for war?

Killer chimps fuel debate on how war began

February, 2005
Special to World Science



Watts declares the incidents back up a proposal that war is rooted in evolution. This view, called the imbalance of power hypothesis, holds that animals that conduct mutual group violence do so because it helps them win resources and territory. This in turn lets them survive longer and breed more—and all living species, evolutionary theory holds, descend from those that were able best do those things in the past.

The imbalance of power hypothesis states, in other words, that evolution favored humans and chimps who warred when and because they could get away with it. “This makes grisly sense in terms of natural selection,” said Richard Wrangham, a professor of anthropology at Harvard University in Cambridge, Mass., and the author of the hypothesis.

Human and chimp battles differ in major ways, he stressed. Humans seem to be much worse judges of what they can get away with. The result: human wars often drag on year after bloody year, after having been initially sold to those involved as an easy win.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives ... warfrm.htm