Why is it..

[Nazz]

that when I read about Zen, the author will sometimes say something like "the aim of Zen is to...", or "the goal of Zen is to..."? Zen has a goal?

[mtmynd]

Zen means meditation (Ch'an in Chinese), but it has come to mean living one's life in the Now, which is actually what one does when meditating.

[Doreen Peri]

Satori is the goal. Isn't it?

[mtmynd]

Not so much a goal as it is a gift... it comes unexpectedly.

[Doreen Peri]

well by definition, it's sought after ... it's the awakening... the desired state of enlightenment ...

so... if it's something that is sought after, it's a goal

[mtmynd]

in that sense, you are correct. however by wanting the goal of satori can never be found. the experience requires a complete abandonment of desire/attachment on all levels... a dissolution of self.

[Doreen Peri]

yeah that's the method

but the goal is still there

we're in agreement, i think

[mtmynd]

kinda...

[Doreen Peri]

well when you use the word "goal" it sounds like that's the primary purpose and it's not

it's the way that's the purpose ... the method to the goal is the primary purpose, the meditation, the being in the now, the connection to all life

the problem with is the word "goal"

it's still there, though, but it's just not the most perfect word to describe it

i believe we're in agreement more than you think

[mtmynd]

It is an enigma to try to define the experience with logic and reasoning, without a doubt. On one hand one would insist that the ultimate goal of meditation is satori, but on the other hand approaching satori as an end-all goal is self-defeating.

I'm quite sure there is a conclusive vocabulary in the 'land of satori' that explains the experience much more satisfactorily than our own English language can ever aspire.

i believe we're in agreement more than you think

quite...

[Nazz]

Thanks Cec. Ha... "Land of Satori". Let your imagination run with that one!

Yeah, was just reading Merton again and it struck me how nearly impossible it is to write on the subject, yet it is all right here, intuitive and experiential in nature, similar I imagine to a religious path that realizes its path-ness and not it's own formulated doctrinal destination. Or something like that.

Btw, I heard Gary Snyder's going to be in town this month and give a talk. He's planted a few Zen gardens along the way, hasn't he?

[Artguy]

The aim of meditation is meditation..."The Path Is The Goal" is the title of one of my fave books on the subject.

[Artguy]

There is something in Buddhism called boddhichita.....which states that as a boddhisatva your aim of enlightenment is not for your benefit but the benefit of others....

[Arcadia]

I heard Gary Snyder's going to be in town this month and give a talk

great! , will you go to listen to him?

[Nazz]

yeah, I think I'll try to go, Arcadia. I was just reading about his life-- fascinating. He's about the same age as my dad.

Merton wrote: "In the Mahayana tradition, which includes Zen, the chief implication of insight into the human condition is Karuna, or compassion, which leads to a paradoxical reversal of what the insight itself would seem to imply. Instead of rejoicing in his escape from the phenomenal world of suffering, the Bodhisattva elects to remain in it and finds in it his Nirvana, by reason not only of the metaphysic which identifies the phenomenal and the noumenal, but also of the compassionate love which identifies all the sufferers in the round of birth and death with the Buddha, whose enlightenment they potentially share"..