Why is it..

[mtmynd]

Yes, I agree with Veronica... go see Gary Snyder and report back your insights.

[Doreen Peri]

Thanks Cec. Ha... "Land of Satori". Let your imagination run with that one!

I thought I was the one who mentioned Satori.

You're welcome.

lol

[mtmynd]

... I'm quite sure there is a conclusive vocabulary in the 'land of satori' ...

what say we share the compliment...?

[Doreen Peri]

ohh... sorry.. missed that ... i thought i was the only one on the thread that used the word satori

i see the post now... a post after mine... i've been out walking the path... and swimming the laps .. lol... i should know not to reply to a thread until i catch up

no, you can have the compliment, cecil... it's all yours!

[Nazz]

I think someone should write a piece called "Land of Satori". Ha.

[mtmynd]

'Satori Sam' is about as close as I could get today...

[Barry]

Is satori permanent? Once reached, is it with one forever? Or does it come in flashes? I thought Zen, zazen, was a path on the way that viewed enlightenment as coming in a flash (or flashes?), rather than the other school, which sees it as more of a cumulative process.

Peace,
Barry

[mtmynd]

Is satori permanent?

unforgettable. there is no permanence.

Once reached, is it with one forever?

not reached but attained. 'forever' is a condition of permanence.

I thought Zen, zazen, was a path on the way that viewed enlightenment as coming in a flash (or flashes?), rather than the other school, which sees it as more of a cumulative process.

yes, satori arrives instantaneously.. a flash, if you will. but a cumulative process may provide the same experience : adherence to the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path, although can never guarantee Enlightenment, will certainly provide a journey that approaches Satori... perhaps in the next life.

[Barry]

And this flash, one of the methods of attainment is through extreme experience?

[mtmynd]

Howdy, Barry...

And this flash, one of the methods of attainment is through extreme experience?

This 'extreme experience' reminds me of what Siddartha went thru on his own search.. the asceticism that he followed at one point is probably as extreme as a seeker may pursue. Ultimately Siddartha ended up practicing meditation from which he became the 'awakened one.'

[Barry]

But in Zen, zazen, isn't it (satori) attained in a flash through extreme experience, such as striking oneself or being struck by another?

And Siddartha, btw, is a fictional character. Modeled after the Buddha, true, but fictional nonetheless. As Neo, in The Matrix, is a fictional character modeled after Jesus.

[Doreen Peri]

Both... fictional (Hermann Hesse's novel by the same name) and real... Siddhartha Gautama.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

[Barry]

Thank you, Doreen. I stand corrected.

[mtmynd]

Barry -

But in Zen, zazen, isn't it (satori) attained in a flash through extreme experience, such as striking oneself or being struck by another?

These certainly happen depending upon the discretion of the Sensei. There is no 'rule' that requires this. There are many anecdotes within Zen, many of which are seemingly mad. But the Sensei may see fit to use any path he chooses to bring about the disciple's satori. But to emphasize - there are no guarantees in attaining enlightenment. Anyone who would so proclaim that should be avoided.

[Barry]

there are no guarantees in attaining enlightenment. Anyone who would so proclaim that should be avoided

Have to wholeheartedly agree with you here, Cec. It's like this guy, Coach, on Survivor, who goes around casually referring to himself as "the chosen one." My thinking is, anyone who refers to himself as the chosen one obviously isn't. Why don't more people see this?