"poets are regarded as handicapped writers whose work must be treated with tender condescension, such as one accords the athletic achievements of basketball players confined to wheelchairs."
--Thomas Disch, "The Castle of Indolence," p. 222.
I hope this doesn't turn into a PC bash but I found this quote stunning in its bluntness and in its truth. Both on the internet and in professional venues (not always exclusive), there is a kind of unwritten rule that poetry reviews must be positive. On the other hand, there also seems to be a reaction to this syrupy love fest where everything is universally hated.
Is this the kind of game we want to play?
Whatever happened to reading the damn thing and telling people what you think, good or bad?
Criticism and poetry
Hi, yejun. Fair topic...
The art of poetry may not suit all readers while
conversely, the art of critique may not suit all writers.
But remember, yejun, the board of which you speak is named "Creative Writing" which includes, but is not restrictive to, poetry.
The key word here, imho, is 'creative'... and that means for me exploring new avenues of writing, including poetry, and extending the rules that have been employed by those that critiqued before us.
Are you familiar with the writings/poetry of Richard Brautigan? There was a writer who broke the boundaries of rules to extend the acceptance of the written word. Of course, Whitman was an early rebel of written words in his time. Poetry/Creative Writing History is filled with folks who stepped beyond the approved method of expression of the times. That is what makes the written word (and any art) what it is.
Rehashing what others wrote for their own times should not preclude anyone's writings for our own times to be read and appreciated for their content... if the reader is not conditioned to a set way of writing from the past. A critic of such may not be welcomed only because the criticism may expose their lack of understanding the writer's intent or exploratory directions.
There are several very accomplished, "new direction" writers that are on this board and I think that is what makes S8 an interesting place to both see and participate in these differing methods of expression. Sure, a decent, well-thought out, honestly written critique should be appreciated... but for anyone to simply say something like "i don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody.
The art of poetry may not suit all readers while
conversely, the art of critique may not suit all writers.
But remember, yejun, the board of which you speak is named "Creative Writing" which includes, but is not restrictive to, poetry.
The key word here, imho, is 'creative'... and that means for me exploring new avenues of writing, including poetry, and extending the rules that have been employed by those that critiqued before us.
Are you familiar with the writings/poetry of Richard Brautigan? There was a writer who broke the boundaries of rules to extend the acceptance of the written word. Of course, Whitman was an early rebel of written words in his time. Poetry/Creative Writing History is filled with folks who stepped beyond the approved method of expression of the times. That is what makes the written word (and any art) what it is.
Rehashing what others wrote for their own times should not preclude anyone's writings for our own times to be read and appreciated for their content... if the reader is not conditioned to a set way of writing from the past. A critic of such may not be welcomed only because the criticism may expose their lack of understanding the writer's intent or exploratory directions.
There are several very accomplished, "new direction" writers that are on this board and I think that is what makes S8 an interesting place to both see and participate in these differing methods of expression. Sure, a decent, well-thought out, honestly written critique should be appreciated... but for anyone to simply say something like "i don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody.
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I think "I don't understand" would benefit people because it is an honest reaction to a writer's work.There are several very accomplished, "new direction" writers that are on this board and I think that is what makes S8 an interesting place to both see and participate in these differing methods of expression. Sure, a decent, well-thought out, honestly written critique should be appreciated... but for anyone to simply say something like "i don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'new directions' (and certainly haven't seen anything stylewise that couldn't just as easily have been written in the 1950's) but the point is whether these writers should be seen as "handicapped" or not?
At the very least, a discussion should be had concerning what new directions these 'new direction' writers are taking?
i believe there is a difference between "couldn't" and "wasn't written in the 1950's." don't you think that some writing done today can be thought of as "today's writings" versus a continuation of 1900's writing styles?... and certainly haven't seen anything stylewise that couldn't just as easily have been written in the 1950's
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Doreen Peri
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I don't understand what's wrong with saying "I don't understand" if you don't understand it.
I say it to writers on the internet all the time. Including this site.
What's wrong with saying that?
When I say it, it's because I don't get it ... and to me, that's a pretty honest reaction from a reader.
If someone doesn't get my work, I sure wouldn't be offended if they said so.
Hell, I don't get my own work a lot of the times, myself. LOL
I say it to writers on the internet all the time. Including this site.
What's wrong with saying that?
When I say it, it's because I don't get it ... and to me, that's a pretty honest reaction from a reader.
If someone doesn't get my work, I sure wouldn't be offended if they said so.
Hell, I don't get my own work a lot of the times, myself. LOL
Sure, but let's call it what it is: bullshitting!Hey, analysis is good. But perhaps one can over-analyze?
Of course, one man's two minute 'analysis' can be another man's 'bullshit'.
I can live with that.
Sure, but I see today as a period of consolidation. If you want to be a free verser, do it. If you want to do form, go for it. Prose poetry, be my guest. L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E stuff, why not? Theoretically, this should be the greatest time in the world for the best poems to surface. It's not. Why? I think, partly, because everybody's still trying to out-rebel the rebels. To shock in style or content is one thing but it loses its value pretty quickly if that's what everybody is trying to do. The postmodern rebellion is of course not a rebellion at all because everybody else is doing the same thing.i believe there is a difference between "couldn't" and "wasn't written in the 1950's." don't you think that some writing done today can be thought of as "today's writings" versus a continuation of 1900's writing styles?
Like conceptual art, it gets boring pretty fast.
Of course, there's always one or two pieces that stand out or stay with you over time.
as i stated:
The art of poetry may not suit all readers while
conversely, the art of critique may not suit all writers.
if you are going to critique another's work, use your words carefully and make clear your intent to say what you mean without being mean about what you say.
if you simply do not understand, i think it's imperative to re-read once or maybe twice or more... time to see if the work in question soaks in. ask yourself what it is about the piece that bothers you. how much time do we spend with a piece before we accept it or reject it? if you don't want to take the time and effort to do this, why bother to even comment to the writer? that's why i write: "but for anyone to simply say something like "i don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody." it's an empty comment that says "tell me what this is supposed to mean... i don't have the time to give to it."
you call it rebellion. i assume you choose that particular word because what you read here and on other links has a substantial amount of material that 'rebels' against your taste in poetry? imho, this is akin to saying someone eating a boca burger is rebelling against what a hamburger really should be... or drinking an non-alcoholic beer is a rebel act against the long tradition of true brewing.
true these are times where one's tastes are challenged. but why is that? the explosion of changes all around us with this internet, the ways we shop, the amount of information we are able to consume at any one sitting at our PC... the instantaneous connection we have with our chosen world and beyond... not to mention the food we consume - the differing selection that anyone before us has ever had or even dreamed of - foods from all over the world almost at our fingertips... the list of the amazing flow of different things worldwide has to certainly change the writing of those that choose to express their lives around them in this never-before-experienced world we are now sharing on an immediate basis and the words that arise from expressing this new world of ours which is in constant change necessitates a change in expression. many will (and have) been lost in this maelstrom of change, but that shouldn't suppress the creative process in any way and fortunately doesn't change creativity but enhances it.
[enough]
The art of poetry may not suit all readers while
conversely, the art of critique may not suit all writers.
if you are going to critique another's work, use your words carefully and make clear your intent to say what you mean without being mean about what you say.
if you simply do not understand, i think it's imperative to re-read once or maybe twice or more... time to see if the work in question soaks in. ask yourself what it is about the piece that bothers you. how much time do we spend with a piece before we accept it or reject it? if you don't want to take the time and effort to do this, why bother to even comment to the writer? that's why i write: "but for anyone to simply say something like "i don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody." it's an empty comment that says "tell me what this is supposed to mean... i don't have the time to give to it."
i can't disagree completely with your take here, yejun. but where i do disagree is your blanket statement "it's not." gives a smell of arrogance by suggesting you have read the remarkable output of poetry/creative writing that the internet has so kindly enlarged to such a tremendous degree that any that can make a statement like that must spend an enormous amount of time sifting thru the millions of posts that are floating thru cyberspace under the overall heading of 'poetry'... are you actually spending your life doing this?Theoretically, this should be the greatest time in the world for the best poems to surface. It's not. Why? I think, partly, because everybody's still trying to out-rebel the rebels. To shock in style or content is one thing but it loses its value pretty quickly if that's what everybody is trying to do. The postmodern rebellion is of course not a rebellion at all because everybody else is doing the same thing.
you call it rebellion. i assume you choose that particular word because what you read here and on other links has a substantial amount of material that 'rebels' against your taste in poetry? imho, this is akin to saying someone eating a boca burger is rebelling against what a hamburger really should be... or drinking an non-alcoholic beer is a rebel act against the long tradition of true brewing.
true these are times where one's tastes are challenged. but why is that? the explosion of changes all around us with this internet, the ways we shop, the amount of information we are able to consume at any one sitting at our PC... the instantaneous connection we have with our chosen world and beyond... not to mention the food we consume - the differing selection that anyone before us has ever had or even dreamed of - foods from all over the world almost at our fingertips... the list of the amazing flow of different things worldwide has to certainly change the writing of those that choose to express their lives around them in this never-before-experienced world we are now sharing on an immediate basis and the words that arise from expressing this new world of ours which is in constant change necessitates a change in expression. many will (and have) been lost in this maelstrom of change, but that shouldn't suppress the creative process in any way and fortunately doesn't change creativity but enhances it.
[enough]
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
Pretty much. I teach English for a living. I've lived in Asia (Korea and Japan) for almost twenty years. It is a constant concern of mine. What bothers me is not your concern with diversity. I like that. What bothers me is the use of the language for insular purposes. I can teach it but I find it, more and more, an inability to understand what it is that you are trying to do. As a teacher, I no longer no what to say to my students. Knowledge, for me, begins and ends with the ability to teach it. If I can't do that, that means I can do nothing but shrug my shoulders.i can't disagree completely with your take here, yejun. but where i do disagree is your blanket statement "it's not." gives a smell of arrogance by suggesting you have read the remarkable output of poetry/creative writing that the internet has so kindly enlarged to such a tremendous degree that any that can make a statement like that must spend an enormous amount of time sifting thru the millions of posts that are floating thru cyberspace under the overall heading of 'poetry'... are you actually spending your life doing this?
Stop pretending and tell me what you see.
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Doreen Peri
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Cecil,
I totally disagree that saying "I don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody. I wouldn't tell an author I didn't understand it without spending some time trying to understand it. By stating that I don't understand it, I'm stating two things....
1) In my opinion the writing could be a lot clearer - This statement can benefit the author because maybe he or she didn't realize the writing wasn't clear and wants to work on it to make it more clear.
2) That I'd like the author to talk to me about the meaning - By stating that I didn't understand it, I'm obviously opening a door to communicate with the author so he or she can explain to me what I missed. This can benefit both the author and other readers of the thread.
Of course stating "I don't understand it" doesn't matter at all when the author is purposely writing works which are not meant to have any clear meaning but could be interpreted hundreds of ways. And if that's the case, the author can choose to ignore me or answer by stating it was intentional to create a piece that can be interpreted hundreds of ways.
Of course the author can always choose to ignore me. It still serves a purpose to state "I don't understand it" because it's honest, true, feedback from a reader.
All this said, MUCH of my own poetry is written intentionally to have multiple layered meanings. At least I hope so. And if I got a reply like that, I'd say, "Neither do I." lol ... but seriously, I'd also let the reader know that he or she is welcome to read meanings into it.
If it's a piece I'm trying hard to express a clear meaning with, I'd very much appreciate such feedback!
...............
I DO strongly agree with this statement:
.........
Still, it's good to realize that MOST poets & writers who post on the internet aren't really looking for critique. They don't look at posting on the internet as a workshop at all. They're not working on their pieces, they're simply standing up on stage like at an open mic putting them out in public.
So, critiquing in a forum specifically set aside as a workshop or critique forum might be a good idea.
However, all writers have to expect that they WILL get critique whether they want it or not no matter where they posted it. It's just the nature of making your art public.
Sorry to ramble on. [enough] from me, too!
I totally disagree that saying "I don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody. I wouldn't tell an author I didn't understand it without spending some time trying to understand it. By stating that I don't understand it, I'm stating two things....
1) In my opinion the writing could be a lot clearer - This statement can benefit the author because maybe he or she didn't realize the writing wasn't clear and wants to work on it to make it more clear.
2) That I'd like the author to talk to me about the meaning - By stating that I didn't understand it, I'm obviously opening a door to communicate with the author so he or she can explain to me what I missed. This can benefit both the author and other readers of the thread.
Of course stating "I don't understand it" doesn't matter at all when the author is purposely writing works which are not meant to have any clear meaning but could be interpreted hundreds of ways. And if that's the case, the author can choose to ignore me or answer by stating it was intentional to create a piece that can be interpreted hundreds of ways.
Of course the author can always choose to ignore me. It still serves a purpose to state "I don't understand it" because it's honest, true, feedback from a reader.
All this said, MUCH of my own poetry is written intentionally to have multiple layered meanings. At least I hope so. And if I got a reply like that, I'd say, "Neither do I." lol ... but seriously, I'd also let the reader know that he or she is welcome to read meanings into it.
If it's a piece I'm trying hard to express a clear meaning with, I'd very much appreciate such feedback!
...............
I DO strongly agree with this statement:
In my opinion a good critique will highlight first the parts of the piece that work well for the reader and then focus on the parts that don't work for the reader and state kindly the reason why it didn't work, possibly making suggestions for improvement.if you are going to critique another's work, use your words carefully and make clear your intent to say what you mean without being mean about what you say.
.........
Still, it's good to realize that MOST poets & writers who post on the internet aren't really looking for critique. They don't look at posting on the internet as a workshop at all. They're not working on their pieces, they're simply standing up on stage like at an open mic putting them out in public.
So, critiquing in a forum specifically set aside as a workshop or critique forum might be a good idea.
However, all writers have to expect that they WILL get critique whether they want it or not no matter where they posted it. It's just the nature of making your art public.
Sorry to ramble on. [enough] from me, too!
The greatest time for poetry is the Elizabethan (and not just Bill). The second time is the Romantics (and not just Bill). The third time was the Modernists (and not just Tom). I can name some wonderful poets still writing today, far better than anything I have tried to do, but I won't put them in the same league as the dead white males I have mentioned.
Totally? My goodness!!DP -
I totally disagree that saying "I don't understand what you're trying to say" benefits nobody. I wouldn't tell an author I didn't understand it without spending some time trying to understand it. By stating that I don't understand it, I'm stating two things....
Please note what you have written here -
One - you disagree with my saying "I don't understand what your trying to say" benefits nobody... then you elaborate by stating your two things, which is fine and well with me.
But simply stating "I don't understand what your trying to say" without adding either of your two 'things' still benefits nobody. It is stating much more that "I don't understand what you're trying to say" that reconciles the statement only after you state why you do not understand what you're trying to say.
By your own words you are not stating why you do not understand what the writer is trying to say until you further your words with
1 - "In my opinion the writing could be a lot clearer"
and/or
2 - "I'd like the (you) to talk to me about the meaning."
While I wrote "'I do not understand what you're trying to say' (period), benefits nobody."
But I do think we're in agreement with the concept rather than our wording, wouldn't you?
[enough... ]
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yejun.... "the greatest times" for me are the current times. you can hold on to your pastness and forever treasure those written words as if the poems of those days were and will be forever yours to behold and exclaim over... but I choose not to, thank you.
enjoy.
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Doreen Peri
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yeah totally, man, totally
by saying "i don't understand" it expresses the two things i said it expresses
doesn't hurt to elaborate either, as you suggested, which i also will do quite often
but i totally, yeah totally, disagree with you that saying "i don't understand" (period) does nothing for anybody for the reasons i elaborated on above.
*shrug* ... guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
by saying "i don't understand" it expresses the two things i said it expresses
doesn't hurt to elaborate either, as you suggested, which i also will do quite often
but i totally, yeah totally, disagree with you that saying "i don't understand" (period) does nothing for anybody for the reasons i elaborated on above.
*shrug* ... guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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