This is not me expressing an opinion.
This is me writing a persuasion piece.
LIFE IS HELL
All my life I’ve never believed that life was hell. We’ve all heard the expression, I just never believed it. I’ve always thought this place was pretty amazing, more like paradise than hell.
Paradise would be like a vacationland or something: somewhere you went by choice, because you wanted to, for fun. Hell would be more a like prison: a place you’re sentenced to, no choice, because you screwed up somehow.
But I’ve always felt like a I did make a choice to come here, to life. In fact, that’s how I described it once to a coworker. I was telling her about the bodhisattva: someone who’s made it, graduated, achieved nirvana - they can now get off the wheel of karma, cease the endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth forever, go to that blissful state which lies beyond. But they don’t do that. They do something else. They come back. Willingly, they come back. They make the choice to do so.
In the midst of my description she stopped me by asking, “Is that what you think you are, Barry, a bodhisattva?” I answered, “Well, yeah, in the sense that I feel like I made a choice to come here.”
In rethinking that conversation, I thought more accurately that it’s just that that’s the only example I’ve ever run across of someone making a choice to come here, to life, which is how I’ve always felt.
But then I got to thinking about people I’ve talked to who describe life as some kind of prison sentence, hell in other words, and I realized that that does describe my life in a certain way. I mean, my life has pretty much been a constant state of finding something else to do, of always being stymied or thwarted by the universe from doing whatever it is I really want to do. It’s always been a matter of doing something else.
And I’m not saying this is unique. I’m sure a lot of other people might say much the same. It’s probably not even uncommon. It’s simply a way of looking at ones life. And if you look at it that way, in that light, then that’s the way it looks. As amazing and wonderful as life may be in other lights, in this one dismal light, it’s true, it looks like life sucks.
And I thought, maybe that’s why I feel like I made a choice to come here, because I did, a bad choice. Maybe there’s some choice I made somewhere along the line, something I chose to do that I shouldn’t have, and that’s what got me sent here, sentenced to here. That would make sense, why I felt like I chose to come here. If it was a sentence, you’d have to know. What good would it do otherwise?
So I made a choice to come here, and while there are good points – life goes on, even in jail – it’s mostly bad. Like a prison sentence. And I truly never have felt like some kind of enlightened soul or anything. I’ve always felt like just some dude trying to get through his life best he could like everyone else; one of billions. That makes sense, too.
Does this mean we’re all prisoners here, every one of us sentenced to life?
I wouldn’t say that, maybe just some of us. Just like some us might be bodhisattvas. That would provide a balanced equation.
It all makes sense. All my thinking what a beautiful, amazing place this is was just denial, delusion. All those people I talked to were right all along. I was wrong. I tricked myself. It’s not some amazingly wonderful vacationland. Life is hell.
Peace,
Barry
Persuasion
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justwalt
- Posts: 895
- Joined: January 28th, 2009, 4:18 pm
- Location: location infers reality... reality is still a theory
I would not count on the appearance of "an endless cycle"... there were moments of intervention, when necessary, that have overridden our freedom of will in the past... but in these days, the purpose of reincarnation has lost it's effectiveness, meaning... what?
So if we have become prisoners, what liberty, (a word which I cannot
attach meaning to), have we lost? What crime could cause such a
paradox?
"enlightened soul Vs. some dude"...
our souls, (spirit), are cool, it's our
human dudes that need enlightening...
now
walt
So if we have become prisoners, what liberty, (a word which I cannot
attach meaning to), have we lost? What crime could cause such a
paradox?
"enlightened soul Vs. some dude"...
our souls, (spirit), are cool, it's our
human dudes that need enlightening...
now
walt
here's my questions...is free will really free if you are thrown back into the game without knowing the rules...if you are going it blind... if you are searching with no clear understanding of what it is you're supposed to be "learning" or "setting right" or experience? it all seems a little futile sometimes. and what if you don't get it right? was it all just a waste of time and energy? or is any experience (good or bad, on or off the mark, pleasant or not), good enough for the collective? and what if a series of "bad" experiences/choices sends you into a downward spiral? do we always have to "fight life" or chase answers to try to find some kind of balance and attempt to tip the scale to the happy side? Is this why so many souls are unhappy and searching and tired and depressed about life to the point of seeing it as a prison. wouldn't this whole exercise of "life" be a lot more meaningful and efficient if we were better prepared for it?
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justwalt
- Posts: 895
- Joined: January 28th, 2009, 4:18 pm
- Location: location infers reality... reality is still a theory
SG, I hope this will help... and Barry, please give your view,
persuasive or not...
This is one of the most debated questions...free will Vs. determinism.
To even entertain the thought, is to question your own beliefs in
spirituality. If you do not believe in a creator, then the subject has
no merits...but if you do believe, you will see that the question is
just another distraction...something that sidetracks you from your
original purpose.
If you truly believe, then you know that we are spiritual entities,
dwelling in spiritually-animated bodies, that we call human.
I believe in this way... we were created as spirit-beings, as part,
yet also whole, of the the creator... not as slaves, or as robots,
made to serve, but as loving companions to dwell side by side
with the creator. The need for us to have freedom of will is a
fundamental requirement... to recognize a creator, to acknowledge
a creator, and to commune with a creator.
Just as an atom does not exist unless observed by someone,
a creator does not exist without an external source to affirm it.
And that affirmation must be justly and honestly, and FREELY
made. Therefore, we must have a freedom of will, to make such
a choice...
We have been let loose in this universe for one purpose only.
But we have taken this inherent gift of will, and used it toward
our own pleasure...forgetting our origins, and running with it in
all other directions. And in this, is where we have lost favor with
our creator. This is why we have arrived in a world of lost souls.
And this is where divine intervention becomes necessary, which
is not evidence of determinism, but rather a loving kick in the ass,
administered when we need it.
There exists then an ultimatum... in knowing or believing in any
creator, what then will we do? Belief in a creator means we must
act in ways set forth by the same. And by acting in ways in tune
with a creator.
I am always seeking, but not always acting. I find that our "will"
seems to be as an entity of its own, yet subject to our directing
of it. Our will, being free, is open to any and all aspects of choice.
Now choose, then act
The purposes of reincarnation, (as I understand it} is another important topic... I believe the purpose of it, but I also believe
it has lost its usefulness...
chow
persuasive or not...
This is one of the most debated questions...free will Vs. determinism.
To even entertain the thought, is to question your own beliefs in
spirituality. If you do not believe in a creator, then the subject has
no merits...but if you do believe, you will see that the question is
just another distraction...something that sidetracks you from your
original purpose.
If you truly believe, then you know that we are spiritual entities,
dwelling in spiritually-animated bodies, that we call human.
I believe in this way... we were created as spirit-beings, as part,
yet also whole, of the the creator... not as slaves, or as robots,
made to serve, but as loving companions to dwell side by side
with the creator. The need for us to have freedom of will is a
fundamental requirement... to recognize a creator, to acknowledge
a creator, and to commune with a creator.
Just as an atom does not exist unless observed by someone,
a creator does not exist without an external source to affirm it.
And that affirmation must be justly and honestly, and FREELY
made. Therefore, we must have a freedom of will, to make such
a choice...
We have been let loose in this universe for one purpose only.
But we have taken this inherent gift of will, and used it toward
our own pleasure...forgetting our origins, and running with it in
all other directions. And in this, is where we have lost favor with
our creator. This is why we have arrived in a world of lost souls.
And this is where divine intervention becomes necessary, which
is not evidence of determinism, but rather a loving kick in the ass,
administered when we need it.
There exists then an ultimatum... in knowing or believing in any
creator, what then will we do? Belief in a creator means we must
act in ways set forth by the same. And by acting in ways in tune
with a creator.
I am always seeking, but not always acting. I find that our "will"
seems to be as an entity of its own, yet subject to our directing
of it. Our will, being free, is open to any and all aspects of choice.
Now choose, then act
The purposes of reincarnation, (as I understand it} is another important topic... I believe the purpose of it, but I also believe
it has lost its usefulness...
chow
Barry: have you been reading Jane Austen lately??? 
I guess yours is a good persuassion piece but as a first reaction I tend to be a bit reactive to persuassion! ... mmm... it sounded mostly like a sort of buzz with two emerging points & a submerged song! :
Emerging points:
1- life as a prison (that also reminded me that even the pope seemed to change his mind about the hell lately)
2- the boddhisattva concept (it´s a sort of smooth concept, but maybe a bit pretentious one in the mouth of a let´s call it occidental)
& the song:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dWdh7ERLb3E&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dWdh7ERLb3E&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
nice thread!
I guess yours is a good persuassion piece but as a first reaction I tend to be a bit reactive to persuassion! ... mmm... it sounded mostly like a sort of buzz with two emerging points & a submerged song! :Emerging points:
1- life as a prison (that also reminded me that even the pope seemed to change his mind about the hell lately)
2- the boddhisattva concept (it´s a sort of smooth concept, but maybe a bit pretentious one in the mouth of a let´s call it occidental)
& the song:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dWdh7ERLb3E&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dWdh7ERLb3E&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
nice thread!
My view on free will vs. determinism:
Long and hard I've thought on this. Best I have is amalgam. I think the truth must be some amalgam of both. I believe there is destiny - determinism - but I know it can be changed through free will. I've done it. This fits with the concept of our being spiritual beings in physical bodies...amalgam.
And I do believe the universe is an artifact, and that all science, not just human science, pushed to its ultimate conclusion will bear this out.
I tend to lean toward the Thou Art God concept as defined in Robt. Heinlein's book Stranger in a Strange Land, ala Church of All Worlds rather than a creator creating the creation to be perceived. I think it's more like the creation creates the creator to be observed. The creation seeks meaning for existence. The creator provides that. Not the other way around. But really the creation is the creator. Thus Thou Art God (in my view). TAG, you're it.
I think the one purpose of life is to be happy, which doesn't mean hedonism, just happiness, which is pleasurable. The idea of pleasure as negative comes from the Hellenistic debasemant of the body and emphasis on spirit as the only good part of a human. I disagree. I like being physical. I like being a spiritual being in a physical body. I don't feel trapped or lost at all. Physicality feels good, spiritually as well as physically. I think that's what's set forth by and in tune with the creator.
Choice is what it's all about. I don't like the idea of no choice. To say I can't choose who I want to lay down with at a given moment is to proscribe freedom. To say I can't help it, it's just the way I am is a cop out. Choice is given. Why would anyone want to give it up? Why would the creator want that for anyone? We know why people want other people to give up choice, but why would their creator? It makes no sense.
Arcadia...Are you callin' me pretentious?:)
I cringe at persuasion also. Or coersion. It really bugs me. But a persuasion piece is something from English Composition 101. Like Comparison and Contrast and Description, etc. But I'm sure you know this.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6j1Ol2rRxzY&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6j1Ol2rRxzY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Peace,
Barry
Long and hard I've thought on this. Best I have is amalgam. I think the truth must be some amalgam of both. I believe there is destiny - determinism - but I know it can be changed through free will. I've done it. This fits with the concept of our being spiritual beings in physical bodies...amalgam.
And I do believe the universe is an artifact, and that all science, not just human science, pushed to its ultimate conclusion will bear this out.
I tend to lean toward the Thou Art God concept as defined in Robt. Heinlein's book Stranger in a Strange Land, ala Church of All Worlds rather than a creator creating the creation to be perceived. I think it's more like the creation creates the creator to be observed. The creation seeks meaning for existence. The creator provides that. Not the other way around. But really the creation is the creator. Thus Thou Art God (in my view). TAG, you're it.
I think the one purpose of life is to be happy, which doesn't mean hedonism, just happiness, which is pleasurable. The idea of pleasure as negative comes from the Hellenistic debasemant of the body and emphasis on spirit as the only good part of a human. I disagree. I like being physical. I like being a spiritual being in a physical body. I don't feel trapped or lost at all. Physicality feels good, spiritually as well as physically. I think that's what's set forth by and in tune with the creator.
Choice is what it's all about. I don't like the idea of no choice. To say I can't choose who I want to lay down with at a given moment is to proscribe freedom. To say I can't help it, it's just the way I am is a cop out. Choice is given. Why would anyone want to give it up? Why would the creator want that for anyone? We know why people want other people to give up choice, but why would their creator? It makes no sense.
Arcadia...Are you callin' me pretentious?:)
I cringe at persuasion also. Or coersion. It really bugs me. But a persuasion piece is something from English Composition 101. Like Comparison and Contrast and Description, etc. But I'm sure you know this.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6j1Ol2rRxzY&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6j1Ol2rRxzY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Peace,
Barry
Last edited by Barry on July 23rd, 2009, 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But a persuasion piece is something from English Composition 101. Like Comparison and Contrast and Description, etc. But I'm sure you know this. ... no idea!, I took it like a humorous fictional sort of argumentative text
Are you callin' me pretentious?
of course, not!
& gracias for the song! , but it seems boddisattvas have at the moment problems with copyright terms in this part of the planet!
Are you callin' me pretentious?
of course, not!
& gracias for the song! , but it seems boddisattvas have at the moment problems with copyright terms in this part of the planet!
Here's another of my faves...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tllhmK9g4G4&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tllhmK9g4G4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Arcadia, ever since I first got online back in 1997 I've felt like I could sense the vibe of a person or people right through the screen, as if I were in the same room with them. It's really a sort of paranormal phenomenon. I have to tell you, your vibe every time I come across it here feels very warm and loving and genuine. I'm certain you are a wonderful person. Thank you for being you.
Peace from Oregon,
Barry
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tllhmK9g4G4&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tllhmK9g4G4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Arcadia, ever since I first got online back in 1997 I've felt like I could sense the vibe of a person or people right through the screen, as if I were in the same room with them. It's really a sort of paranormal phenomenon. I have to tell you, your vibe every time I come across it here feels very warm and loving and genuine. I'm certain you are a wonderful person. Thank you for being you.
Peace from Oregon,
Barry
I pulled this back up because something just occured to me which I'd been journaling on awhile back, long before I posted this.
Karma and Dharma.
Karma is the cumulative burden or blessing you carry, accrued through many lifteimes, we're told.
Dharma is the work of your current life.
Karma is what you have to work with.
Dharma is what you work within.
This came back to mind in the context of this thread.
Karma is destiny.
Dharma is free will.
Even the Hindu mystic knew, thousands of years ago. And we've simply mucked it all up since then.
It's both.
Peace and Love,
Barry
Karma and Dharma.
Karma is the cumulative burden or blessing you carry, accrued through many lifteimes, we're told.
Dharma is the work of your current life.
Karma is what you have to work with.
Dharma is what you work within.
This came back to mind in the context of this thread.
Karma is destiny.
Dharma is free will.
Even the Hindu mystic knew, thousands of years ago. And we've simply mucked it all up since then.
It's both.
Peace and Love,
Barry
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goldenmyst
- Posts: 633
- Joined: April 25th, 2008, 8:46 pm
- Location: Bible Belt :(
- Contact:
Barry, life is hell for most I'm afraid. We struggle and toil and then end up in a nursing home. It sounds pretty bleak. Yet there are moments when we experience nirvana. Bodhisattva, is a good analogy. In my case I didn't choose to come back but found myself compelled to, because of karma. Keep writing my friend. There is a wealth of wisdom in your words.
John
John
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