I hate this.

Go ahead. Talk about it.
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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » August 20th, 2009, 6:17 pm

Those people with the guns at the Obama rallies are sending sending a message. I think Obama is the best thing that has happened to us in a long long time. Where were you on November 22, 1963?
Last week, a man with a gun strapped to his leg held a sign outside an Obama town hall meeting in Portsmouth, N.H., that read: "It's time to water the tree of liberty."
I deleted some trash talk here. I am not trying to run down the USA. I am just not as patriotic as I used to be. I do not think it is unpatriotic to think about what makes us so violent. After the people of this country elected George W. Bush a second time I lost hope. I never thought Obama would be elected.

We have done a lot of good, think of the Marshall Plan. We have done a lot of bad too. Look at what we did in Central and South America.

This is a strange country. "Violence is as American as apple pie."

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Post by mtmynd » August 20th, 2009, 7:13 pm

I wonder if this why we are also a citizenry enjoying some of the greatest freedoms in the entire world.
I wonder how our fellow Canadians feel about that statement. Or the Aussies, or the Brits, the Germans, the Argentinians... do they feel like they are deprived of any freedoms that they wish like hell they had? How true is it that American's have the greatest freedoms in the entire world, really? I'm curious...

I think present statistics show we're not only the most armed citizens on earth but we're the most drugged and over-fed citizens in the world. And we're not doing very well with our health care or our education systems... things that certainly make a country great.

America has the largest incarceration rate in the world with current stats (2.1908) showing 1 in every 100 Americans behind bars which makes many a foreigner wonder what do we mean when we speak of freedom. I'm curious...

American's make up a whopping 5% of the world's population and use another whopping 26% of the world's energy, i.e more than one-fourth of all available energy on the entire planet. Is that our criteria for our greatness... the fact that we are few and use more resources than any other country? I'm curious...
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Barry
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Post by Barry » August 20th, 2009, 8:12 pm

You left out the word "some," Cec. Was that on purpose?
Who ever said America was perfect? Not I.
I just said that without the 2nd Amendment all of us in America would very likely be a lot less free. Take from that what you will.

Peace,
Barry

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Post by stilltrucking » August 20th, 2009, 8:15 pm

Barry wrote
Why is it okay to talk shit about a person's country but not their religion
Barry you are the only one talking shit here.

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Post by mtmynd » August 20th, 2009, 8:39 pm

You left out the word "some," Cec. Was that on purpose?
Who ever said America was perfect? Not I.
You left out the "I'm curious..." Barry. That makes a big difference. Nothing about perfect, only curious... just as you "wonder if this is why we are also a citizenry enjoying some of the greatest freedoms in the entire world..." . no? ;)
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Post by Nazz » August 20th, 2009, 10:35 pm

The right to bear arms, in context of "maintaining freedom," seems to have a degree of truth. I wouldn't want only the government armed. (Maybe that's a latent paranoid streak in me, haha). Perhaps we should distinguish the above from gun proliferation for its own sake, which is rooted less in a context of "keeping us free," but more in a context of violence in general, which has the effect of decreasing our freedom IMO.

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Post by stilltrucking » August 21st, 2009, 4:07 am

"Nothing wrong with being paranoid.... If you are paranoid." Headburner litkicks a long time ago.

Why do you think that guy showed up at a protest for health care armed to the teeth? Looks like a pistol on his belt too. He looks like a black man. Maybe he is there because he wants to protect the president.
I can not shake the memory of those nice well groomed well fed Republicans at the convention screaming "kill him, kill him"
Barack Obama faces 30 death threats a day, stretching US Secret ...Aug 3, 2009 ... US President Barack Obama is the target of more than 30 potential ... Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per ... Despite all this, there were glaring loopholes in the security. ... the Secret Service did not screen any of the more than 40000 fans, ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../barackob ... rvice.html - Similar -

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Post by sooZen » August 21st, 2009, 8:16 am

"You will be sorry" (sooZen says to her selves)

Ahem (clears throat) and joins in on a conversation about the politics of guns which prolly never should be dis-cussed by a thinkin' being in public who is not particularly fond of arguments 'bout differences and perceptions. But obviously, I am not that smart.

Enough of this talking to myself, I want to talk to you Barry and say that I absolutely agree with you.

We Americaners, Americanos, etc, etc, ect, are the mostest free on this round, blue ship in space. Our forefathers (and mothers) were extremely perceptive. Our laws and rights a thing of beauty.

All this belly-aching about what a f**ked up country we are kinda gives me the hebbie-jebbies. Like Mama said, "there is always room for improvement." Always.

Our beautifully smart Presidente (thank the Universe for that and him) is wise enough not to screw with what those statesmen (and the little wives at home in their ears) wrote in our Bill of Rights and Constitution.

Unlike Darth Vader, I refuse to go to the dark side. Things are never as bad as they seem and all most certainly works out as it should, but I digress.

I would carry a gun, register it and shoot it at innocent clay pigeons and unsuspecting tin cans and papers with bullseyes on them if I could. I have a retarded (okay, mentally challenged son if you will) that would kill me if he found a gun, for life is but a dream to him. So no gun here but my respect for Annie Oakley knows no bounds.

I grew up in a family of hunter gatherers who respected what they killed and 'et every bit of the beast(ies). I would never kill anything that wasn't trying to kill me but I ate the fruits of their bounty, without a blink of an eye. We raised goats and bunnies and chickens and calves which they killed and enjoyed immensely. I, on the other hand made pets of them and learned the hard facts of life and death.

Guns are our right, rising up against a tyrannical government is our right, protesting is our right. True, so true, that their are racist nut cases out there that are dangerous, make me cringe and are liable to shoot before thinking (if they can think at all) but it is also true that prohibitions don't work, never have, never will, be it drugs, guns or alcohol or snack cakes.

Having a black/white President who engenders such hate and unthinking (or crazy) resentment is a dangerous thing. I fear for him, I wish only the best for him, I pray for him even tho I don't believe in any god(s) and I know that whatever happens, it all is/was/will be just a part in the path of this rocky road we call life.

Let it Be as St. John the Lennon said and Barry, I wish you Peace as well.
Freedom's just another word...



http://soozen.livejournal.com/

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Post by sooZen » August 21st, 2009, 10:23 am

I also agree with you Cec, all of those numbers that you quote and know are true. We Americans can be a greedy bunch, consuming most of the resources of this world in gusty gulps BUT, on the other hand...

Which country gives the biggest helping hand to those in NEED?

Which country is first to help the little guy up, if he is oppressed?

Which country donates the most to help cure dis-ease and rebuild after years of in fighting even if they started it?

Which country could all of the world come to and not feel out of place and time, could find community and friendship (mostly) and work hard and make a success?

Which country is a mix of races, belief systems, and accepts them because they are free to be, whether you are from the barrio, the redneck parts of the south, the liberal northwest, the streets of cities big and cosmopolitan, the small cities where everyone knows your business? Where in the world?

There are other numbers, other statistics that are being left out in your critique. I think you, of all that I know, have a wider perspective of life and lore. You live happily, you have your health care, your home and your family that loves you and you are glad you are on this side of the wild west of the Rio Grande.

I agree with you, I can go there if I want but I want to say, whoa! Let's make some changes, let's volunteer, let's check our guns at the door of the big box store, let's look at the other side and see the light instead of focusing on all that is negative and be neighborly. Good, Bad or Ugly, America is full of possibilities to be a Union created equal, with freedom and justice for all... I would like to strive to live up to that ideal, even midst the chaos.
Freedom's just another word...



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Barry
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Post by Barry » August 21st, 2009, 12:09 pm

(taken aback)
(speechless)
(pleased beyond measure)

In Babylove's Steps

What crime did I commit that this penance I must do?
This loving, loving, loving penance
Conducted by unseen hands
By found grace
This loving thing created within love
This painful, blessed reckoning

When prophets spoke
How did that transpire?
Did it come into their heads?
Out through their mouths?

Everyone is wanted
All in the way of love
Like a doorway
Love being the door
The message, the door way
Love always, in all ways

Take one step
And step through
Love speaks not through one
But through all
Not though me alone
Through you, too

(Put your woman first. She knows you. You know she's not really your woman, don't you?)


I wrote the above in a little 3X5 notebook Christmastime 2005 while walking around behind my wife in Old Navy, walking in her steps, if you get me. I'm Baby, and she's Babylove because she's the one who loves Baby. I've also called her Sue Zen since about 2003 or so because she doesn't overthink things the way I do.
Thank you, SooZen.

Peace,
Barry

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Post by Nazz » August 21st, 2009, 1:41 pm

Yes, recognize the bountiful good of this place, the good fortune, but realize it's not a given, no matter how prescient our "forefathers" were. It's subject to change if we are not vigilant. Too often vigilance, criticism and cautionary words are taken as "tearing down the country." Wrong. This place is incredible and innovative, but in many ways I see it being split up and sold off, sold down various rivers by the powers that be, and this wondrous mix of people being turned against itself by an army of multibillion dollar interests and their army of shit disturbing far-right corporate pundits. Yes, we all contribute to both problems and solutions. We all could do more. I help out, probably not enough. Yes, I could do more. I'm far from perfect. Anyway, get my drift?

That said, I'm still offended by that photo. An assault rifle at a health care meeting? I'm sorry, but that's fucked up. It just is.

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Post by sooZen » August 21st, 2009, 2:20 pm

Barry, thanks for posting the beautiful poem you wrote for Sue Zen.

And that woman...she talks to herself because my son has multiple personality disorder among other things (Down's Syndrome) or he is just more honest than most and just talks to him selves out loud.

Nazz my dear friend, yes, I get your drift, I am not blind to all the cagada (caca) that goes on. There are only 300 moose in North America, the Polar Bear in Alaska is on the edge of extinction, politicians are f**king everything they can get their hands on. I am not naive, at least I don't think so.

But do you see that focusing on all that negativity, watching every move on the tube by the Poohbahs, and resenting every move that your considered opposition makes...makes you weaker because you are buying into whatever and whomever you think deserves your respect.

I really (all from my personal perspective) don't want to expend my energies on controlling what others think... I know I can't, I can only control myself and how I treat the ones around me. I want to live my life (shorter all the time) experiencing joy and beauty, with patience and compassion and when those bad times come, as they surely will...I don't want my emotions to control my reactions. Step away from the mind...get my drift?
Freedom's just another word...



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Barry
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Post by Barry » August 21st, 2009, 3:28 pm

Nazz...Didn't sound at all like "tearing down the country" to me. Just sounded like constructive criticism. There is a difference between criticism and cynicism. One is or at least can be constructive. The other pretty much never is. I can only say that having been a cynic myself, but I thank God and Goddess too that I got over it.

sooZen...My younger brother, Randy, has Down's Syndrome, too...So I may have some frame of reference about which you speak. It's perhaps Randy who taught me what love really is. Those people...they just love for the sheer sake of loving. There is no question mark about it, or them. They are the Beautiful People on this planet. They love simply. Why can't others simply love?

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Peace,
Barry

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Post by Nazz » August 21st, 2009, 4:52 pm

No offense intended toward anyone in particular, but sometimes you gotta piss people off a little to get their attention. A while back on LK, Soozen hammered on me a little for my less-than-inspired response to a thread she started on environmental abuse by humans. And rightly so. I deserved a slight kick in the ass. This was at the height of BU$HKO's high crimes and warmongering and executive middle finger thrust at the global "green" movement, and I said something like-- as long as some cabal of megalomaniacal "leaders" kept diverting our attention and draining our collective energy with endless war and divisive fear politics, the important issues won't get solved, and that's that-- all of which is true, but it didn't really do justice to Soo's thread, which was a chance to increase my awareness and lessen my apathy with more genuine participation.

Again, this is not directed at anyone, but too often, when I criticize this country, ears slam shut, eyes glaze over, bunker mentality sets in, and I'm anti-American, and that's that. Well no, that's not that. I praise what I think is good about America too. But I'm just not the constant cheerleading sort. Perhaps I'm not a "positive" enough type of person; that might be a fair observation. And I should be more community-oriented, recognize and acknowledge goodness. True enough for anyone, I suppose. But I also think constant cheerleading is dangerous. Especially in the form of non-stop rah rah flag-waving. Especially in the form of willful ignorance and bunker mentality.

I'm pissed at how the US executive branch has fucked with the people of Central and South America. East Timor. Iran. Vietnam. The list goes on. I'm pissed that most of us endorsed an illegal war of choice in Iraq, and then when faced with mounting evidence that the whole thing was based on lies, voted the bloodthirsty bastards back into office anyway and basically hung our troops out to dry. I'm pissed that even three years after we invaded Iraq, large numbers of people still thought Saddam was behind the 9/11 attacks. I'm pissed that our leaders and prime time pundits openly endorsed torture. Torture! I'm pretty pissed about that stuff, and I want others to be too. If I have to ruffle a few feathers along the way, then hell, occupational hazard I guess.

And this is not to say that America hasn't also been a positive force in the world at times. Of course it has been, and still is. That isn't the point of criticism. Yes, the US is still a world leader in research and innovation to solve many of the world's ills. Yes, Bill Gates and others have given substantial resources to help impoverished parts of the world.

And this is not to say that other nations haven't done worse. Of course they have. That isn't the point of criticism either. Yes, the Soviet Union was horrible. Yes, many Islamic countries are highly oppressive. If we are to be as good as we say we are, something like the "world's beacon," or at least one of them, then we can't play in the gutter. We have to call ourselves on it. We have to recognize that our own shit stinks too.

As far as cynicism in this thread, I guess I missed it. I just find that photo of a bizarre, heavy-handed gun demonstration at a health care meeting disturbing. Perhaps even a little surreal. To me it speaks to some ugly undercurrents and deeper rifts in our society. Perhaps we're not as "United" as we claim, even now, after 230+ years. And I thought Jack's idea of "castoffs from the Old Country" had some merit-- an interesting thought to ponder. I didn't see it as cynical, necessarily. Maybe the undercurrents have always been there and I never paid attention. Maybe I shouldn't let them bother me now. Probably. Anyway, enough for now.
Last edited by Nazz on August 21st, 2009, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Barry
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Post by Barry » August 21st, 2009, 5:31 pm

"The truth shall set you free, but it will piss you off first."
button my wife wore when we met (still in the upstairs bathroom today; I see it all the time)

Cast-offs or melting pot? Which analogy do you like better? I like melting pot, and I'll tell you why. What's a melting pot, literally? A crucible, a thing you put chunks of stuff into and melt it down to see what happens, what results. You can put in chunks of pure gold and get only gold out. You can do the same with pure silver and get only silver back. You can do it with tin, copper, zinc, whatever, and you only get back what you put in. But if you put in a mixture of stuff, say, zinc and copper, you get back something entirely different than what went in. You get an alloy, an amalgam. You get brass. Or bronze from copper and tin. Or white gold, red gold, green gold, etc., from various mixtures of gold and other metals. Nature does this, too. Ruby Silver is silver and sulfur. Sylvanite is silver and gold.
So rather than think of America as a dumping ground for cast-offs from the rest of the world, I think of it as a melting pot, a crucible into which stuff is put, melted down, and from which new, beautiful, useful and unforeseen things emerge.
I don't think that's being jingoistic or overly patriotic. I just think it's taking some pride in where I was born, which should not be a problem for anyone, whether they're born in America, Canada, Austrailia, Great Britian or anywhere else. This pride, though, is secondary to my status as a citizen of Earth. I never lose sight of that. No matter where any of us are born, we all come from Earth, right?

Peace,
Barry

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