Okay, Cecil. You win. Feel better?;)
Peace,
Barry
GOD
...why me?
(...)
So if you intend to keep up this nasty charade,
If you want to stay behind your curtain,
If you won’t come out and just show yourself,
You can find another dupe to work your works.
I’m through.
It’s done.
There’s more faith and grace in this place and these people
Than you’ve ever bothered to show in them.
that was brilliant!
(...)
So if you intend to keep up this nasty charade,
If you want to stay behind your curtain,
If you won’t come out and just show yourself,
You can find another dupe to work your works.
I’m through.
It’s done.
There’s more faith and grace in this place and these people
Than you’ve ever bothered to show in them.
that was brilliant!
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hester_prynne
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Thanks, HP. I'm hip to your comment. 
Thanks, Arc, though I don't know about brilliant. Still, I appreciate your saying so.
Cecil, your long post at the end of the first page of this thread was condescending, plain and simple, as are many of your posts throughout S8. Is that what self-realization and knowing Truth is? I'm sure you don't mean to be condescending, and very likely you would determine that the condescention is more a product of the readers psychology than your own. Nonetheless, one must take responsibility for their actions, the effect they have in the universe, whether intended or not, no? Always being the smartest person in the room is not easy. It's important to remain humble, to walk softly, to be constantly aware of not only what your thinking, doing, etc, but of what others are feeling based on those thoughts and actions. Because the feelings of others matter just as much as your own thoughts and actions, perhaps more. Maybe this is a next level leap beyond self-realization: the realization of oneself as part of a group. I fully understand that you know who you are. But do you comprehend that I know who I am? Do you extend to me the same courtesy you expect? Deny the subtle arrogance behind your words regarding knowing and Truth all you want. That doesn't make it not there. It comes from "knowing" "Truth" and disregarding all else that does not fit your presupposition. That's arrogance, a closing off of the mind to new information. I don't think it's what was intended by the teaching. What's that Shakespeare quote? "...more in heaven and on Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy...?" What the Bard meant was, everything you think you know is only what you think you know. It's not all there is to know. Anyone who thinks they have found Truth (ulimate truth with a capital T) has lost sight of this fact. Even you, Cecil. And even the Dalai Lama knows this. I was taught by the Dalai Lama, and while I didn't shake the man's hand or speak directly to him, he spoke directly to me. He taught me. I know what I'm talking about. I have been in his presense. Knowing can be arrogant, even without ones trying to gain power over another. Knowledge must be tempered with humility.
Peace,
Barry
Thanks, Arc, though I don't know about brilliant. Still, I appreciate your saying so.
Cecil, your long post at the end of the first page of this thread was condescending, plain and simple, as are many of your posts throughout S8. Is that what self-realization and knowing Truth is? I'm sure you don't mean to be condescending, and very likely you would determine that the condescention is more a product of the readers psychology than your own. Nonetheless, one must take responsibility for their actions, the effect they have in the universe, whether intended or not, no? Always being the smartest person in the room is not easy. It's important to remain humble, to walk softly, to be constantly aware of not only what your thinking, doing, etc, but of what others are feeling based on those thoughts and actions. Because the feelings of others matter just as much as your own thoughts and actions, perhaps more. Maybe this is a next level leap beyond self-realization: the realization of oneself as part of a group. I fully understand that you know who you are. But do you comprehend that I know who I am? Do you extend to me the same courtesy you expect? Deny the subtle arrogance behind your words regarding knowing and Truth all you want. That doesn't make it not there. It comes from "knowing" "Truth" and disregarding all else that does not fit your presupposition. That's arrogance, a closing off of the mind to new information. I don't think it's what was intended by the teaching. What's that Shakespeare quote? "...more in heaven and on Earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy...?" What the Bard meant was, everything you think you know is only what you think you know. It's not all there is to know. Anyone who thinks they have found Truth (ulimate truth with a capital T) has lost sight of this fact. Even you, Cecil. And even the Dalai Lama knows this. I was taught by the Dalai Lama, and while I didn't shake the man's hand or speak directly to him, he spoke directly to me. He taught me. I know what I'm talking about. I have been in his presense. Knowing can be arrogant, even without ones trying to gain power over another. Knowledge must be tempered with humility.
Peace,
Barry
Hi Barry 
I liked your poem very much and thought your expression and getting the stuff off your chest, so to speak is a healthy outlook.
I don't need to defend Cecil, for he is perfectly (within the confines of wabi sabi or what perfection may be) able to express himself. I do think that you are feeling wounded and that is surely not his intent.
Being a zennist (not a buddhist), I tend to see "god or gods or higher beings" as a figment of our overactive imaginations but I do not question others belief systems, for it is a personal choice and I am all for personal choice!
I think I can understand both points of view. I know from whence Cec came at it and I can see your passion and the experience(s) you expressed. What you wrote is valid for that very reason and needs no explanation, unless you choose to discourse about the subject.
My truth is, there are no higher or lower beings, all share the same import, whether a blade of grass or a pine tree, a cougar or a human...whatever, they all play their roles in this tiny ship in space. But I cannot deny your truth either for that is not my job (nor do I want to be responsible for what others think!) Like my Bro (a stanch Republican) says, "we can agree to disagree" on some points.
I can see that you have a large understanding of the universal by what you write and your perceptions are certainly not static and are evolving, as we all should, if we use that tool called mind. Questioning anyTHING is good on your part and Cecil's.
The zen masters where not always kind. A zen stick rapped on the knuckles sometimes brought a person to attention to the moment (for that is all there is, this moment, now.) There is the story of the master that had a student come to him after pondering a koan, "I am just not getting it Master, I can't fathom what it means." The master then threw the student out the second story window of the zendo, jumped out after him, landing on his chest! He then looked the poor dude in the eye and said, "do you get it NOW?"
I am by no means saying anyone here is a master. Not Cec, not I nor you. We are all just students of Life and all that entails. Cec introduced me to zen in 1969 and we used to have huge arguments about whether or not a tree was as important as a deer. He didn't tell me what to think or do, he just exposed me to the literature, the wonders of nature and his own experience with the Light. He is still learning, I am still learning and so it goes...
When the student is ready, the teacher finds you. My teacher was not Cecil but found me after exposure and I was ready. So the Dalai Lama found you. But our teachers are not "higher beings", they only know how to get high and we all have that within us.
I try not to hold on to negative thoughts and let them pass for I too want to be healthy and whole as I can be.
I wish you peace...
I liked your poem very much and thought your expression and getting the stuff off your chest, so to speak is a healthy outlook.
I don't need to defend Cecil, for he is perfectly (within the confines of wabi sabi or what perfection may be) able to express himself. I do think that you are feeling wounded and that is surely not his intent.
Being a zennist (not a buddhist), I tend to see "god or gods or higher beings" as a figment of our overactive imaginations but I do not question others belief systems, for it is a personal choice and I am all for personal choice!
I think I can understand both points of view. I know from whence Cec came at it and I can see your passion and the experience(s) you expressed. What you wrote is valid for that very reason and needs no explanation, unless you choose to discourse about the subject.
My truth is, there are no higher or lower beings, all share the same import, whether a blade of grass or a pine tree, a cougar or a human...whatever, they all play their roles in this tiny ship in space. But I cannot deny your truth either for that is not my job (nor do I want to be responsible for what others think!) Like my Bro (a stanch Republican) says, "we can agree to disagree" on some points.
I can see that you have a large understanding of the universal by what you write and your perceptions are certainly not static and are evolving, as we all should, if we use that tool called mind. Questioning anyTHING is good on your part and Cecil's.
The zen masters where not always kind. A zen stick rapped on the knuckles sometimes brought a person to attention to the moment (for that is all there is, this moment, now.) There is the story of the master that had a student come to him after pondering a koan, "I am just not getting it Master, I can't fathom what it means." The master then threw the student out the second story window of the zendo, jumped out after him, landing on his chest! He then looked the poor dude in the eye and said, "do you get it NOW?"
I am by no means saying anyone here is a master. Not Cec, not I nor you. We are all just students of Life and all that entails. Cec introduced me to zen in 1969 and we used to have huge arguments about whether or not a tree was as important as a deer. He didn't tell me what to think or do, he just exposed me to the literature, the wonders of nature and his own experience with the Light. He is still learning, I am still learning and so it goes...
When the student is ready, the teacher finds you. My teacher was not Cecil but found me after exposure and I was ready. So the Dalai Lama found you. But our teachers are not "higher beings", they only know how to get high and we all have that within us.
I try not to hold on to negative thoughts and let them pass for I too want to be healthy and whole as I can be.
Do not humanize god for the reality is far greater than ourselves. Rather, humorize god to bring joy to ourselves... a Cecilism
I wish you peace...
Freedom's just another word...
http://soozen.livejournal.com/
http://soozen.livejournal.com/
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
Yes, slap me on the back to bring on the flash of enlightenment. I get it. I know Cec thinks that is what he did. Or tried to do, tries to do, etc. My question is...
Understand?
I don't feel it's right to slap Cecil on the back, and I would not deign to do so.
I built my ego up from nothing, for a reason, and I keep it small for a reason also. That reason is, living here in the West as I do, I need it to not only survive but thrive. But I also need to keep it small, to temper it with humility. Because if I don't, it gets in my way.
It's not an uncommon problem, no matter how enlightened one thinks themself to be, or is thought of as being.
Thank you, sooZen for your comments. They have been taken to heart by me.
Peace,
Barry
PS: Love is not only All, it's Everything.
Understand?
I don't feel it's right to slap Cecil on the back, and I would not deign to do so.
I built my ego up from nothing, for a reason, and I keep it small for a reason also. That reason is, living here in the West as I do, I need it to not only survive but thrive. But I also need to keep it small, to temper it with humility. Because if I don't, it gets in my way.
It's not an uncommon problem, no matter how enlightened one thinks themself to be, or is thought of as being.
Thank you, sooZen for your comments. They have been taken to heart by me.
Peace,
Barry
PS: Love is not only All, it's Everything.
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stilltrucking
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- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
No, sorry but that is not what I meant at all... but it is what it is.Yes, slap me on the back to bring on the flash of enlightenment. I get it. I know Cec thinks that is what he did. Or tried to do, tries to do, etc. My question is...
Understand?
You called Cec "condescending", implied that he was arrogant and needing to develop some humility. I ask you, where is the love you think is not just all but everything?
Did he call you names? You took offense, "plain and simple" as you say although no offense was meant. Your perception is just that, your perception and I don't have the energy or time nor need to resolve this to your satisfaction.
This conversation is no longer a discussion of differences but something else entirely (and sadly.) It was my mistake to respond in the first place to your personal poem despite the fact that I have no "balls" as you responded heartily to another. I read all your words and take them at face value. No reading between the lines here for I cannot possibly fathom your anger, honestly.
You are mad at god and now you are mad at Cecil. I certainly wish you peace.
Now this whole thing has taken a lot out of me and in the meantime, I have the business of life to attend to. So pardon me as I bow out.
Freedom's just another word...
http://soozen.livejournal.com/
http://soozen.livejournal.com/
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stilltrucking
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- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
. You talk about Cecil being condenscending. You tell me if I live long enough I will understand. With almost seventy years upon my head to hear you call me boy?
I believe in G-d okay. But I don't want no truck with that personal G-d of yours. Or with that mighty smitey god of vengence of my mothers and fathers before me.
I love G0d with all my heart and all my strength,
I am grateful that I am alive. That I did not kill my mother although I come close. but for the grace of god. That I did not kill that guy in Astoria Oregon. Or the one in Houston.
I don't know what to call it G-d? But so far I have been spared by the Grace of It. The grace that has saved me from suicide and murder. Self murder.
please pardon the ramble
if we can't see the humor in this
we are missing the point.
You jam with Cecil it is best to keep your tongue firmly in cheek. That is my opinion.
I believe in G-d okay. But I don't want no truck with that personal G-d of yours. Or with that mighty smitey god of vengence of my mothers and fathers before me.
I love G0d with all my heart and all my strength,
I am grateful that I am alive. That I did not kill my mother although I come close. but for the grace of god. That I did not kill that guy in Astoria Oregon. Or the one in Houston.
I don't know what to call it G-d? But so far I have been spared by the Grace of It. The grace that has saved me from suicide and murder. Self murder.
please pardon the ramble
if we can't see the humor in this
we are missing the point.
You jam with Cecil it is best to keep your tongue firmly in cheek. That is my opinion.
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Doreen Peri
- Site Admin
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I love the passion in this poem, Barry! Go go go! really good!
"God means never having to say you're sorry"
no wait.. that's "Love means never having to say you're sorry" .. oh shit.. sigh.. that's a quote from "Love Story"... what a stupid movie.
But God is Love, right? anyway......
LOL!
Sorry.
I mean, I didn't mean to say I'm sorry. God, I love the poem!
seriously
(not meaning to interrupt the other conversation in this thread.. just replying to the poem... thank you)
btw, the reason I think that statement is stupid (referring to the quote from the movie), is i think saying you're sorry is Godlike and apologies are beautiful when sincere.... just a footnote... i'm sorry but this has nothing to do with the rest of this thread only the poem and maybe not even the poem!... only my reply!
but i already said that... i think
God, I ramble on.
i'm sorry.
"God means never having to say you're sorry"
no wait.. that's "Love means never having to say you're sorry" .. oh shit.. sigh.. that's a quote from "Love Story"... what a stupid movie.
But God is Love, right? anyway......
LOL!
Sorry.
I mean, I didn't mean to say I'm sorry. God, I love the poem!
seriously
(not meaning to interrupt the other conversation in this thread.. just replying to the poem... thank you)
btw, the reason I think that statement is stupid (referring to the quote from the movie), is i think saying you're sorry is Godlike and apologies are beautiful when sincere.... just a footnote... i'm sorry but this has nothing to do with the rest of this thread only the poem and maybe not even the poem!... only my reply!
but i already said that... i think
God, I ramble on.
i'm sorry.
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stilltrucking
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
What I pray for and still pray for is a hearing heart.
When I said I am glad someone has balls to stand up for god I was being sarcastic again. Sorry.
We got to tell our stories. I don't know why
Poetry is as trippy as it gets for me these days
It takes balls to open your heart to strangers
Keeping on keeping on Barry.
I was not being sarcastic when I said thank you for writting.
And I don't understand what you meant when you told Nazz you are glad someone has balls here.For the ancient Hebrews, the heart was more than an organ that pumped blood. The heart was thought to be the center of everything physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. So when Solomon asked for a hearing heart, what he really wanted was for God to inform every aspect of his life so he could be a wise and faithful king.
http://www.thelutheran.org/article/arti ... le_id=4248
When I said I am glad someone has balls to stand up for god I was being sarcastic again. Sorry.
We got to tell our stories. I don't know why
YEs I was born again in the seventies. Everybody and their brother was being born again in the seventies...Talkin' to a preacher said God was on his side
Talkin' to a butcher they both were sellin' hides
Well I gotta tell the story boys I don't know the reason why
Poetry is as trippy as it gets for me these days
It takes balls to open your heart to strangers
Keeping on keeping on Barry.
I was not being sarcastic when I said thank you for writting.
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stilltrucking
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This is my favorite line from the whole poem
But maybe you will learn something I have come to understand. There is no need to defend god or get pissed at anyone for questioning your faith.
I thank god I have not lost my sense of humor yet.
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Keep the faith Barry. You are right if we live long enough we understand maybe. I am a slow learner. You are way ahead of me when I was your age.There’s more inside than you ever put in.
But maybe you will learn something I have come to understand. There is no need to defend god or get pissed at anyone for questioning your faith.
I thank god I have not lost my sense of humor yet.
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