Would You Want the Mosque In Your Backyard?

[sooZen]

Okay, me and the wet hen have a lot in common this morning. I am not a religious person, I could give a hoot about anyone's personal beliefs (cuz they are personal!) But I find it highly ironic that we are experiencing the same kind of mentality about this so called "mosque" (actually, it is a Community Center with a planned basketball court and art classes and stuff with only a small portion planned for worship) and see a correlation of what happened in the sixties with the bombings of black churches in the South. And I have no doubt that some of these so called "defenders of the American Way" and upstanding citizens that are so outraged by Muslims near their sacred grounds will do the same damage in the name of right that was done back then. And feel justified.

Obviously, our lessons are never learned. "The masses are asses" my wise Daddy used to say and the masses that want to burn the Koran (in a Christian setting) or stand up in indignant protest to another's beliefs unlike their own are surely the biggest asses (no offense meant to a burro) in my purview, such as it is.

Sadly, LRod is right in the sense that it is unwise of these Muslims to go ahead with their community center with all that has been riled up at this point. They got the permit months and months ago and it wasn't until a right sided blogger made it an issue that it became an issue. Now, tell me, this same guy probably supported Bush's war in Iraq and the defense of the Muslims' freedom there, don't ya think?

And these same folks are the ones that loudly proclaim "their rights under the Constitution and Bill of Rights" like the right to bear arms are the same folks that want to bury the right to religious freedom in the same documents. Or ignore them.

So we are traveling down the same road again. Frankly, I hope they have the courage (it will take a lot of that) to build that community center just like Rosa Parks had the courage to sit down in the front of that bus. We need courage in this day and time to stand up to the intolerance and bigotry that raises it's ugly ass head.

[Doreen Peri]

we would be far better off banning fear and stupidity.

Now wouldn't that be nice? I totally agree! How do we do this? I'm in!

[mtmynd]

Now wouldn't that be nice? I totally agree! How do we do this? I'm in!

I'll start with my Self and if it makes a difference I'll pass it on!

[Doreen Peri]

Sadly, LRod is right in the sense that it is unwise of these Muslims to go ahead with their community center with all that has been riled up at this point. They got the permit months and months ago and it wasn't until a right sided blogger made it an issue that it became an issue. Now, tell me, this same guy probably supported Bush's war in Iraq and the defense of the Muslims' freedom there, don't ya think?

And these same folks are the ones that loudly proclaim "their rights under the Constitution and Bill of Rights" like the right to bear arms are the same folks that want to bury the right to religious freedom in the same documents. Or ignore them.

You are so right, Soo!

So we are traveling down the same road again. Frankly, I hope they have the courage (it will take a lot of that) to build that community center just like Rosa Parks had the courage to sit down in the front of that bus. We need courage in this day and time to stand up to the intolerance and bigotry that raises it's ugly ass head.

In an ideal world, I'd agree with you. What I don't understand is how in the first quote above, you say "LRod is right in the sense that it is unwise of these Muslims to go ahead with their community center with all that has been riled up at this point" which I agree with ........ and then in the second quote, you say "Frankly, I hope they have the courage (it will take a lot of that) to build that community center just like Rosa Parks had the courage to sit down in the front of that bus."

These two statements conflict. They are opposites.

I do agree that they should be able to build it wherever they want. I think it's a crying shame that there is so much fear and ignorance in this country that people HAVE been riled up about it. Unfortunately, what I'm afraid of (and yeah, I have fear, too), is that some of the people who are riled up about it are the ones with weapons and that some crazy person is going to get so riled up about it, violence will erupt and people will get hurt.

That's all we need is some type of nutwing reaction by a crazed out bigot who pulls a Tim McVeigh and another building comes down and more people are killed.

That's MY fear.

In this climate, in this world, with all the weapons and advanced technology, I don't think we can have it both ways right now. What's RIGHT is that they should build it there and Rosa should sit down on that bus again just as she should! What's wrong is this is the 21st century and nutjobs have weapons and advanced technology and they're bigots so is it WISE to build it there?

Which one? Can't have both.

Personally, I go back and forth with the issue because I'd like to see what's RIGHT happen. But I'm very worried that if what's RIGHT happens, what's WRONG will also happen.

That's why I don't think it's wise at this particular time.

[mnaz]

we would be far better off banning fear and stupidity.

well,
ideally, yes . . .

[sooZen]

quote above, you say "LRod is right in the sense that it is unwise of these Muslims to go ahead with their community center with all that has been riled up at this point" which I agree with ........ and then in the second quote, you say "Frankly, I hope they have the courage (it will take a lot of that) to build that community center just like Rosa Parks had the courage to sit down in the front of that bus."

These two statements conflict. They are opposites.

Actually, I don't happen to think they conflict at all. Being and doing the unwise is not the same as hoping they have the courage to go ahead with what others think is unwise or making them a target for the nutballs like Timothy, the American bomber. ( Hey, maybe we should ban all Okies! heheh)

Do you think that doctors should quit preforming a woman's right to choose because someone (a nutcase) will shoot them? Depends on where one stands on the issue (I am sure) but rights are rights and until they change with the due process that we have set up in this country (ideally because our founders were Idealists) then being intimidated by nutballs is living in fear and that is no way to live. I would not and chose not to live a paranoiac existence, afraid of what "may" happen and even if it is unwise, I would applaud those people's courage to stand up for what they believe, even if it is not my belief.

If they unwisely, but courageously choose to go ahead with that community center, they probably need not worry as our attention span in this country is about as long as a flea's prick. There will be some new issue (or controversy) next week that will take this whole thing out of the news cycle and the poohbah's will have something else to rail against. You can bet on it and probably take that ticket to the window.

And innocent people (btw) get killed every day and will as long as us Big Apes are in charge. I live across the border from a war zone. People minding their own business, not bothering anyone die daily. Life is a gambit. You never know when your time is up so I will live it to the fullest and no threat, no terror, no dumbass is gonna change that for me. If I lived close to that Muslim community center, I would be there just because...

[Doreen Peri]

Yeah, SooZ... I see what you mean. You are probably right. The RIGHT thing should probably happen despite the potential consequences. But if it does, I will continue being concerned about their safety.

[sooZen]

Understood. You are the type of person that this world needs more of, empathetic and kindly! Living in fear is no way to live, in my not so humble opinion and I will try and live courageously and keep my idealistic and positive view that all will turn out as it should...

Love you Dor!

[Doreen Peri]

Love you back... and love how courageous you are.

Right again about living in fear. It's no way to live. Frankly, the Tea Party nuts scare me. They already think Obama is a terrorist, is not a US citizen, their spokesman Ms. Palin has verbalized violent and bigoted rhetoric ....many of their spokesmen have.... these are the people who frighten me. They are spewing dangerous, bigoted, hate-filled rhetoric, sending out email campaigns full of lies with photoshop-modified photos (I got one just recently where they put Obama and The First Lady's LEFT hands over their hearts when pledging allegience).... just crazy stuff... way crazy. What's his name? The right wing whacko on TV? Have you ever watched him? Glenn Beck. OMG, that guy is scary, I'm telling you. And what's REAL scary is that sooooo many people follow these nutcases.

You are definitely more courageous than me, SooZ. Matter of fact, lately I have thought of becoming an isolationist entirely... just moving out to the country somewhere... becoming self sufficient, a survivalist ...but UNARMED! Hah! I hate guns!

Thanks for the dialogue. It really isn't healthy to live in fear. At least I'm honest about my own fears, though. That's one thing. Sighh...

xxoo
D

[Arcadia]

interesting thread!: yeah, to ban is most of the time somehow only superficial and sometimes dangerous... Concerning religions I´m in a cynic day plus to have an opinion of this particular caso you have to know the context well ... (no idea about lower Manhattan daily life and not an USA citizen so I found the l-rod question somehow funny, it would be interesting to know old Litkicks´s Jamelah opinion about it!).
I tried to read about the theme and found that the investors are from Saudi-Arabia, that the tierra is private property and that the mosque will be placed "near" the old target zone so it seems it could cause more problems and injustice to ban the construction in order to security reasons than to let the people build their place.
When I was in Buenos Aires in 2003 and walk near Palermo I asked if this: http://www.palermonline.com.ar/noticias ... zquita.htm was a shopping center or some tematic entertaintment place (no joke about it!)... I was surprised by the magnificence of the construction ... and to be sincere, after the Israel embassy and the AMIA bombed and a corrupt two terms filo-sirian-mafia president (among other things) not very enthusiastic and a bit suspicious about it. But never passed my mind the possibility to have banned the construction... I hope it was all legal...
I also hope NY city and neighborhood´s people can enjoy the cultural centre activities and that the place can be a belief- freedoom lung as well as other places sure they already are in the city.

[sooZen]

Dor, Well, my advise (such as it is) would be to isolate yourself from the news. (None of it is ever good anyway.) I myself don't watch it (mostly) and find that not tuning in to the suffering that I have no control over is a more peaceful way to live.

Some thrive on it, my mate Cecil and my Mom are political junkies and the news of the day is their forte. Not I. I get an inkling from them as to what is going on and sometimes it makes me madder than the proverbial wet hen and I get a burr under my blanket and have to speak out. Cec steered me here and I found myself caught up in the discussion.

But mostly, I go about my day without paying attention to what is the "news" or what someone thinks is "news". At my age, I know where I stand on an issue or how I feel about a matter at large. Honestly, I used to want to rail against all I perceived as injustices in the world but not so much anymore. I just do what I can, here, where I can and leave all the rest to those that have the "calling" to right wrongs and/or speak out. It is not for the faint at heart like you or even an em-path like myself. I am a healer but can only heal those in my path, on the road to where ever I am going...

So stay away from the TV News, the internet News, and any bad News would be my advice and stay right where you are. No need to hide out, with or without a gun. Use your spade or your hoe and grow something...busy yourself with your life, your family and friends, your art and ignore the rest, you may find it a more tranquil existence. I know I do.

Arcadia, yes, this all must seem really strange to you. It seems strange to me and I live here. Time will tell how it all will turn out, time has a way of doing that...

[Doreen Peri]

Sooz....

I agree with you. I'm definitely not a news junkie and often take breaks from all the news myself. I do sometimes watch Larry King's interviews and parts of Anderson Cooper but I don't watch the news every day or read news stories every day lately... deliberately staying away from it.

There was a time when I used to do that and I realized it wasn't a good idea for me personally.

On the other hand, I DO think we need to stay awake and aware and that, unfortunately, those who run the world would rather see the public as uninformed as possible and so I battle with this with myself sometimes because I think I SHOULD be informed and yet I know how much stress it can cause me when there are right/wrong situations which are out of my control.

I paint my paintings, do my gardening, write poetry, listen to or play music, and read a lot. These are the things that keep me sane, calm, and peaceful. I can't wait to get back to swimming and going to the gym but I have been quite ill and I"m still recouperating.... soon I hope!

The other day someone started a thread at Arcanum Cafe about Proposition 8 and I didn't even know what it was. Hah!

I had heard the mosque situation mentioned on the news but didn't really know much about it until this thread and another one at the Cafe during the past few days, so I looked into it some, then I just posted my immediate reaction and thoughts about it.

Both of these news stories have brought much debate and arguing between people on the internet and I really shouldn't be involved in the discussions at all because I tend to react emotionally and I'm trying to be as stress-free as possible right now esp. due to my health issues.

I, too, have strong right/wrong opinions about various news stories and sometimes it's just best to stay out of touch a little. At the same time, I think discussions like this are healthy and airing our opinions and sharing them as well as listening to the opinions of others is an important part of the process of making positive changes in the world.

Thanks for the conversation!

[Lightning Rod]

The discussion has evolved in about the same way here as it has in most public discourse on the subject. At this point though, I think Mayor Bloomberg has it right. They HAVE to build the mosque now and build it right where they said they would. Why? I haven't changed my mind on the subject, but since the right-wing closet-haters have chosen to make this an issue of race and religion thinly cloaked in concern for the feelings of the families of the victims of 911, it has elevated a local zoning issue into a matter of principle and now we Must come down on the side of Freedom of Religion. The whole matter has been irritated into such a sore that there is no choice but to build it as a living demonstration of our tolerance.

[stilltrucking]

You know what I miss Clay? Papist plots. You hardly ever hear about them anymore.

Interesting article on Salon dot com about the mosque. .

Mau-Mauing the Mosque
The dispute over the "Ground Zero mosque" is an object lesson in how not to resist intolerance.
By Christopher Hitchens

http://www.slate.com/id/2263334

[Arcadia]

so, it will be a sufi mosque? we have in my city Naqshbandi´s followers but I know there are a few more branches, I know two people (one of them a friend and a dance teacher, the other an aromateraphy specialist), their religious, social and political ideas are sometimes very thrilling -for me, of course!- (not exactly my idea of a Rumi poem... ) and at the same time they are very kind persons!. They don´t use to polemize, they leave you talking alone while they look at you...