and the war on poetry drags on
it's called critic by some
an inquisition that would pretend
that some poets know better then others
but who are these poets that attack other poets
in the name of what, that they know something
that you don't, because they are educated
they set themselves up to ridicule you
and thereby proclaim themselves
the rulers of what is poetry and what is not
because they have made a poetry web site into
their own little church of critics
and all the other poets must worship at their feet
this happens when poetry is turned into a personality cult
this happens when the moderator does not follow his own
rules, and allows a certain faction to act like bullies
this happens when they remove any poet that defends themselves
from attacks, that are not really constructive, but meant to
tare the other poet down, because they don't like you
because you do not kow tow to the cabal of critics
these critics that want to turn poetry into a kind of totalitarianism
which if they really cared for the poetic they would honor diversity
or they would know that poetry could not be poetry without it
the war on poetry drags on
-
leafsailors ghost
- Posts: 430
- Joined: December 31st, 2015, 11:06 pm
Re: the war on poetry drags on
critique |kriˈtēk|
noun
a detailed analysis and assessment of something, esp. a literary, philosophical, or political theory.
verb ( critiques , critiquing , critiqued ) [ with obj. ]
evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way: the authors critique the methods and practices used in the research.
critique Note: Nothing about abusive mean spirited attacks or condescending longwinded ego driven advise.
criticize |ˈkritəˌsīz|
verb [ with obj. ]
1 indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way: states criticized the failure to provide an adequate and permanent compensation | technicians were criticized for defective workmanship.
Or
2 form and express a sophisticated judgment of (a literary or artistic work): a literary text may be criticized on two grounds: the semantic and the expressive.
This is the difficulty :
These few men you speak of do not understand the difference between these words.
Also there is a deep need to be better best and have the last outspoken word
dominating commentary building long threads brings views, makes money.
Sadly good poets hang on any way, as they have formed good friendships with others , they just put up with the stink.
It is a sign to me that some one does not understand the true nature of the art when they feel that they can write someone else's work for them.
An artist is alone, he or she must find they way to express what they need to express .When it becomes a contest it is like having a love contest
yes, what?
When I go back and look I quickly see nothing changes it is a little incidental hell , no one has to stay,but they do and take the abuse. No you can not shut them up because when you get close to putting the bullshit to bed you get shut down , You can not stand up for those who do not know how to defend themselves .Your poem reminded me of many unhappy times I had because I had friends I did not want to lose but I was losing my good nature ,I will not enter into that house again and hope to leave it far behind.When you think about it ,let it go it is toxic.I can feel the frustration in the poem .
noun
a detailed analysis and assessment of something, esp. a literary, philosophical, or political theory.
verb ( critiques , critiquing , critiqued ) [ with obj. ]
evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way: the authors critique the methods and practices used in the research.
critique Note: Nothing about abusive mean spirited attacks or condescending longwinded ego driven advise.
criticize |ˈkritəˌsīz|
verb [ with obj. ]
1 indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way: states criticized the failure to provide an adequate and permanent compensation | technicians were criticized for defective workmanship.
Or
2 form and express a sophisticated judgment of (a literary or artistic work): a literary text may be criticized on two grounds: the semantic and the expressive.
This is the difficulty :
These few men you speak of do not understand the difference between these words.
Also there is a deep need to be better best and have the last outspoken word
dominating commentary building long threads brings views, makes money.
Sadly good poets hang on any way, as they have formed good friendships with others , they just put up with the stink.
It is a sign to me that some one does not understand the true nature of the art when they feel that they can write someone else's work for them.
An artist is alone, he or she must find they way to express what they need to express .When it becomes a contest it is like having a love contest
yes, what?
When I go back and look I quickly see nothing changes it is a little incidental hell , no one has to stay,but they do and take the abuse. No you can not shut them up because when you get close to putting the bullshit to bed you get shut down , You can not stand up for those who do not know how to defend themselves .Your poem reminded me of many unhappy times I had because I had friends I did not want to lose but I was losing my good nature ,I will not enter into that house again and hope to leave it far behind.When you think about it ,let it go it is toxic.I can feel the frustration in the poem .
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Nice poem
Reminds me of something I wrote years ago when the internet and poetry forums were in their infancy, I guess that goes to show that the concept of fuckwit poetry trolls is nothing new.
I should probably clarify that I'm not talking about people who offer critiques in critical analysis forums, in that environment, even if they're talking shite, their opinion is welcome. That's probably because, in places set aside for critical analysis, there's a tacit agreement or informal contract between a poet who wants their stuff dissected in a bid to improve it and the critics who are happy to oblige, CA forums and workshops are generally a positive thing in that regard. The real problems arise when the critics are let loose in the general or open poetry areas, the areas where new poets are stretching their newfound poetry legs or people are just trying to get their feelings, emotions, ideas or 'their stuff' out there in the hope that someone can relate and interact in a socially friendly environment.
Let the critics loose in that environment and the result is that the critic, perceived as someone trying to help by those who are looking for critical analysis, is labelled a fuckwit troll by those who aren't interested in receiving critical analysis.
What you are describing is a site run by someone who passionately believes that all poetry can, and should, be improved by critical analysis and that every poem is posted based on that premise. Unfortunately every poem isn't posted based on that premise.
There are sites dedicated to CA that work very well, PFFA for instance, there are poetry sites where the social aspect and showcasing takes precedent, PIP for instance.
Sites that try to incorporate both in the same forum are rare and where they do exist the result is inevitably a lot of friction between the two groups. That friction in and of itself isn't a bad thing, as LG points out internet sites generate money based on the visitor throughput and nothing generates throughput like controversy and conflict - the internet is built on the pulling power of the 'car crash' mentality.
I guess what I'm saying is that poets, being human, don't all want the same thing, that doesn't mean that one group is right and one is wrong it just means that they're different. If a site doesn't fit your requirements the worst thing you can do is to carry on participating, you'd be far better off finding a site that matches your needs and post there instead. It's far better to help build something you like rather than support something you don't and in internet forum terms building and support are measured in the amount of participation.
That's the longest reply I've typed in several years, if it makes no sense to you then please feel free to ignore the content and take it at face value as a form of support by participation.
Reminds me of something I wrote years ago when the internet and poetry forums were in their infancy, I guess that goes to show that the concept of fuckwit poetry trolls is nothing new.
I should probably clarify that I'm not talking about people who offer critiques in critical analysis forums, in that environment, even if they're talking shite, their opinion is welcome. That's probably because, in places set aside for critical analysis, there's a tacit agreement or informal contract between a poet who wants their stuff dissected in a bid to improve it and the critics who are happy to oblige, CA forums and workshops are generally a positive thing in that regard. The real problems arise when the critics are let loose in the general or open poetry areas, the areas where new poets are stretching their newfound poetry legs or people are just trying to get their feelings, emotions, ideas or 'their stuff' out there in the hope that someone can relate and interact in a socially friendly environment.
Let the critics loose in that environment and the result is that the critic, perceived as someone trying to help by those who are looking for critical analysis, is labelled a fuckwit troll by those who aren't interested in receiving critical analysis.
What you are describing is a site run by someone who passionately believes that all poetry can, and should, be improved by critical analysis and that every poem is posted based on that premise. Unfortunately every poem isn't posted based on that premise.
There are sites dedicated to CA that work very well, PFFA for instance, there are poetry sites where the social aspect and showcasing takes precedent, PIP for instance.
Sites that try to incorporate both in the same forum are rare and where they do exist the result is inevitably a lot of friction between the two groups. That friction in and of itself isn't a bad thing, as LG points out internet sites generate money based on the visitor throughput and nothing generates throughput like controversy and conflict - the internet is built on the pulling power of the 'car crash' mentality.
I guess what I'm saying is that poets, being human, don't all want the same thing, that doesn't mean that one group is right and one is wrong it just means that they're different. If a site doesn't fit your requirements the worst thing you can do is to carry on participating, you'd be far better off finding a site that matches your needs and post there instead. It's far better to help build something you like rather than support something you don't and in internet forum terms building and support are measured in the amount of participation.
That's the longest reply I've typed in several years, if it makes no sense to you then please feel free to ignore the content and take it at face value as a form of support by participation.
Re: the war on poetry drags on
But they don't care. And you know it. And they know it. And he is in charge so you lose. Such is life.revolutionR wrote:and the war on poetry drags on
it's called critic by some
an inquisition that would pretend
that some poets know better then others
but who are these poets that attack other poets
in the name of what, that they know something
that you don't, because they are educated
they set themselves up to ridicule you
and thereby proclaim themselves
the rulers of what is poetry and what is not
because they have made a poetry web site into
their own little church of critics
and all the other poets must worship at their feet
this happens when poetry is turned into a personality cult
this happens when the moderator does not follow his own
rules, and allows a certain faction to act like bullies
this happens when they remove any poet that defends themselves
from attacks, that are not really constructive, but meant to
tare the other poet down, because they don't like you
because you do not kow tow to the cabal of critics
these critics that want to turn poetry into a kind of totalitarianism
which if they really cared for the poetic they would honor diversity
or they would know that poetry could not be poetry without it
Re: the war on poetry drags on
just like the War on Drugs, a war that can't ever be won....you cannot silence poets...they will find the strength and balance, the resourcefulness to keep putting the word out there...fuck the tight asses that think they are clever, the no-nothings that have fallen in love with the sound of their own voice...........losers...end of story.....keep 'em coming brothers and sisters....you are safe here at Studio 8....
If you do not change your direction
you may end up where you are heading
you may end up where you are heading
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Am shocked by such length of discourseGrinch wrote:Nice poem
Reminds me of something I wrote years ago when the internet and poetry forums were in their infancy, I guess that goes to show that the concept of fuckwit poetry trolls is nothing new.
I should probably clarify that I'm not talking about people who offer critiques in critical analysis forums, in that environment, even if they're talking shite, their opinion is welcome. That's probably because, in places set aside for critical analysis, there's a tacit agreement or informal contract between a poet who wants their stuff dissected in a bid to improve it and the critics who are happy to oblige, CA forums and workshops are generally a positive thing in that regard. The real problems arise when the critics are let loose in the general or open poetry areas, the areas where new poets are stretching their newfound poetry legs or people are just trying to get their feelings, emotions, ideas or 'their stuff' out there in the hope that someone can relate and interact in a socially friendly environment.
Let the critics loose in that environment and the result is that the critic, perceived as someone trying to help by those who are looking for critical analysis, is labelled a fuckwit troll by those who aren't interested in receiving critical analysis.
What you are describing is a site run by someone who passionately believes that all poetry can, and should, be improved by critical analysis and that every poem is posted based on that premise. Unfortunately every poem isn't posted based on that premise.
There are sites dedicated to CA that work very well, PFFA for instance, there are poetry sites where the social aspect and showcasing takes precedent, PIP for instance.
Sites that try to incorporate both in the same forum are rare and where they do exist the result is inevitably a lot of friction between the two groups. That friction in and of itself isn't a bad thing, as LG points out internet sites generate money based on the visitor throughput and nothing generates throughput like controversy and conflict - the internet is built on the pulling power of the 'car crash' mentality.
I guess what I'm saying is that poets, being human, don't all want the same thing, that doesn't mean that one group is right and one is wrong it just means that they're different. If a site doesn't fit your requirements the worst thing you can do is to carry on participating, you'd be far better off finding a site that matches your needs and post there instead. It's far better to help build something you like rather than support something you don't and in internet forum terms building and support are measured in the amount of participation.
That's the longest reply I've typed in several years, if it makes no sense to you then please feel free to ignore the content and take it at face value as a form of support by participation.
Actually, AT isn't really a poetry site. It's a site of entitlement. The guy (?) in charge owns it and doesn't care at all about poetry. All he (?) cares about is getting in the last word, brutalizing most women, and showing folks he's in charge.
But what do I know?
-
revolutionR
- Posts: 932
- Joined: December 15th, 2013, 12:46 am
Re: the war on poetry drags on
i think these are good and thoughtful responses, my think here is that if someone wants critique, that is fine, but the critique should be tempered with a real care to offer feedback, but when it becomes like the critic is more like attacking you, or they can not critique their own critique process without sounding like they are not mindful that their critique might not be helpful or even needed or wanted then there is a problem, but having said that I know that sometimes I responded with my own kind of critique, or as I said in the poem I attempted to defend myself. On TP the owner kept kicking me off for not agreeing with the main critic, and others, in that I felt that it was like a war on my poetry, on my writing style. And again I don't care if they feel the need to war on my style, but this time I was kicked off the site for merely misspelling some words. I obviously got along with the other poets and I liked poets on there and they liked me, so I brought something to the site, so why did the owner kick me off for merely misspelling a few words.
Re: the war on poetry drags on
AT man doesn't need a "real" reason for anything. He's in charge. He knows he's in charge. And he wants to show/tell everyone he's in charge.
Read "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"....the guy in charge is the Nurse Ratched of Poetry sites.
Read "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"....the guy in charge is the Nurse Ratched of Poetry sites.
-
revolutionR
- Posts: 932
- Joined: December 15th, 2013, 12:46 am
Re: the war on poetry drags on
The lunatics run the asylum, this is true of the world, and it is true of AT, the owner is a little dictator. he trolls his own site with his cabal of fake critics. Makes me wonder why those egotists are so afraid of other poets that come from a different place.
Re: the war on poetry drags on
I'm not familiar with the site, but all too familiar with the type. You were kicked out because you simply weren't "cool" enough to sit at the BMOC table. Places like that aren't poetry sites - they're private clubs, where the moderators' favorites can post whatever dreck they want, but anyone who uses a different color pen is immediately shunned. My advice would be walk away and don't look back. Nobody needs that shit.revolutionR wrote: why did the owner kick me off for merely misspelling a few words.
I belong to another writers' site that's just had a death sentence commuted. I'm glad, because it's the sort of site where unsolicited advice is occasionally offered, but always in a caring, positive way (at least in the forums I inhabit): "Liked the poem, but something in the 3rd stanza doesn't quite work for me - maybe something along the lines of this would help......"
It's not so much critique as collaboration.
Anyway. From what I've seen of Studio 8 (I'm a relative newcomer) you'll be more than welcome. Grab a chair, a pad, & a pencil and come write by the fire with the rest of us!
.
"If one could deduce the nature of the Creator from a study of creation, it would appear that He has an inordinate fondness for beetles." -- evolutionary biologist J B S Haldane, (1892-1964)
"If one could deduce the nature of the Creator from a study of creation, it would appear that He has an inordinate fondness for beetles." -- evolutionary biologist J B S Haldane, (1892-1964)
-
revolutionR
- Posts: 932
- Joined: December 15th, 2013, 12:46 am
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Yeah, I was on a site recently called poetfreak that just went down, the owner was not moderating for some years apparently, so a troll caused a lot of trouble and a lot of the poets just got fed up and left, as far as Algonquin's table site, I like the format and most of the poets, but the little cabal of critics condoned by the owner always have to attack, even if they know you don't want their critique, but it's just too bad because it's just another site that has been taken over by a certain mentality, and the poets that keep dodging that.I was not so good at dodging it, I would attempt to reason with them, in the beginning I just dished it back in my own way, and the owner would kick me off, and then let me back on.This last time I was attacked for misspelling a few words. And the lead "critic" said my poem was wrong
because that's what he does, your wrong he is right.
because that's what he does, your wrong he is right.
-
Doreen Peri
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14601
- Joined: July 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm
- Location: Virginia
- Contact:
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Oh... I forgot to say hi to one of my favorite poets ever! Hey RABBIT! Wassappenin'? Good to see you back. I've missed you. I know we all have! How do I know? I donno. I just know things like that. How could we NOT miss you? 
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Doreen,
Every site, even those not running adverts, makes money based on traffic - it's not hard cash you can spend right now but it's still being accrued.
Your site for instance, based on the traffic throughput is currently worth $3,089, as you increase the traffic that value would rise. Get it high enough and you could sell the site to someone who would monetize it by adding adverts to generate an income stream. Lots of people make lots of money by buying sites and doing just that.
Not that you'd be interested in selling the site but that's what I meant when I said that more traffic generates more money.
Though even that's not strictly true, there's a tipping point where increased traffic of the wrong type is counterproductive. That's because part of the value of a site is calculated based on it's 'good name' if you generate enough bad publicity or reviews, like any other business, the net worth depreciates.
Every site, even those not running adverts, makes money based on traffic - it's not hard cash you can spend right now but it's still being accrued.
Your site for instance, based on the traffic throughput is currently worth $3,089, as you increase the traffic that value would rise. Get it high enough and you could sell the site to someone who would monetize it by adding adverts to generate an income stream. Lots of people make lots of money by buying sites and doing just that.
Not that you'd be interested in selling the site but that's what I meant when I said that more traffic generates more money.
Though even that's not strictly true, there's a tipping point where increased traffic of the wrong type is counterproductive. That's because part of the value of a site is calculated based on it's 'good name' if you generate enough bad publicity or reviews, like any other business, the net worth depreciates.
-
revolutionR
- Posts: 932
- Joined: December 15th, 2013, 12:46 am
Re: the war on poetry drags on
This site has a great format, and a fine bunch of poets, thank you Doreen. 
-
Doreen Peri
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14601
- Joined: July 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm
- Location: Virginia
- Contact:
Re: the war on poetry drags on
Grinch... I thought I had read something about traffic making money in your initial reply and that's what I was replying to. And then I went outside and was looking at this thread on my iPhone and I couldn't even FIND where you said that so I thought, jeezz... I said something stupid here... and even more stupid than that, I couldn't figure out how to edit my post on my iPhone. Good grief, it sucks getting old.
Anyway, so I deleted my entire post rather than trying to edit it and trying to find the spot where you mentioned money.
But at the beginning of my post, I welcomed you to the site, I also told you how we like to inspire each other here and how this site is truly like no other site I've ever been to. I mentioned that we don't tolerate bullying and we never did and I deleted one bully since 2004 when the site opened and if another one were going to stop by here and post, I'd delete him or her, too. We like supporting and inspiring each other, not for applause, but for creative inspiration!
(Did you say something about making money in your original post to this thread?... I'm lost on my own site and I'm back inside on my computer and everything and still can't find where you mentioned money in your first post on this thread. Did I hallucinate it?)
Now that you brought up the money thing, you're right, I run no ads and never have. I pay for the hosting of the site out of my pocket, as does the other site owner pay for the hosting of his site (AT ... he runs no ads. Zero)
How you came up with a dollar figure is beyond me. Really? It's worth $3,089? No kidding!? How did you arrive at that figure? And who is it worth that much to? Who could I sell it to? I could use the money really badly. I'm broke. Once you tell me my target market, how you arrived at the figure, maybe I can figure out how to sell it.
I had no idea it was worth any money at all. I figured it was just a venture that cost me money and which I gladly pay for because it's a labor of love.... (though I am grateful for those contributions from several members during the past via the donate button, some of whom were very generous).
Not trying to hijack Rabbit's thread, so my apologies to you, Rabbit!
If you want to message me with details, Grinch, I'd love to hear your answers.
Anyway, so I deleted my entire post rather than trying to edit it and trying to find the spot where you mentioned money.
But at the beginning of my post, I welcomed you to the site, I also told you how we like to inspire each other here and how this site is truly like no other site I've ever been to. I mentioned that we don't tolerate bullying and we never did and I deleted one bully since 2004 when the site opened and if another one were going to stop by here and post, I'd delete him or her, too. We like supporting and inspiring each other, not for applause, but for creative inspiration!
(Did you say something about making money in your original post to this thread?... I'm lost on my own site and I'm back inside on my computer and everything and still can't find where you mentioned money in your first post on this thread. Did I hallucinate it?)
Now that you brought up the money thing, you're right, I run no ads and never have. I pay for the hosting of the site out of my pocket, as does the other site owner pay for the hosting of his site (AT ... he runs no ads. Zero)
How you came up with a dollar figure is beyond me. Really? It's worth $3,089? No kidding!? How did you arrive at that figure? And who is it worth that much to? Who could I sell it to? I could use the money really badly. I'm broke. Once you tell me my target market, how you arrived at the figure, maybe I can figure out how to sell it.
I had no idea it was worth any money at all. I figured it was just a venture that cost me money and which I gladly pay for because it's a labor of love.... (though I am grateful for those contributions from several members during the past via the donate button, some of whom were very generous).
Not trying to hijack Rabbit's thread, so my apologies to you, Rabbit!
If you want to message me with details, Grinch, I'd love to hear your answers.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests