Hi Mousey,
No worries about the crit. hope some of it was helpful or at least thought provoking enough to inspire you to take a second look at the poem.
Hi Doreen,
"I truly hope you continue doing exactly what you've been doing through the years. If a person puts their writing out there and you feel compelled to critique it, go for it!"
First off, thanks. Secondly, in the future I won't be critiquing on this site unless specifically asked for my opinion or inside the interpretation section. I find these types of discussions really exhausting and usually fruitless. It's always been the same at every forum, the majority don't want opinions, they want ego boosters. Even at PIP in a forum that I helped moderate years ago called Critical Analysis, a lot of people were against criticism. Personally, false praise is as much an insult as false hate.
"I'm guessing that the PC manner of doing things is what SooZ is referring to. (please correct me if I'm wrong, SooZen)."
So you mean the PC manner of doing things in this forum is to only give praising critiques...like - "nice job!", which is a critique, albiet short and useless...so critiquing is okay in this forum, as long as its what author wants to hear.
"Applause. After a while "Great poem" just gets old. I used to take those comments to heart. It made me feel good. But to find out that the same people who are applauding my work with a word like "brilliant" are also applauding work which is crappola, in my opinion, as "brilliant." This takes a lot away from the applause. LOL!"
For sure. Totally agree. When I first started showing my work I went through the same thing. I stopped showing for years after that because I felt I could not trust anyone to be honest. That's why honesty is so important. How can I take anyone serious who praises crap?...and we all write crap now and again. Their words mean nothing if its bullshit lip service....and its also insulting. My opinions are never the "truth" about the work I critique, but it is the truth about my thoughts on the work. I just don't see how anyone can claim to care about art then lie their asses off about what they think of artistic work. That is one of the most damaging things you can do to art or an artist....it does nothing but dellude them and dillute their work.
"I like both, myself, but I do especially enjoy the pieces where I can see that the author worked on honing the writing, choosing just the exact words."
Now this is not directed towards you, but rather a general point I'd like to make....Here's my example of the big difference between polished and winging it:
What is more moving, a garage band jam or Debussy's "Claire De Lune"?
What leaves you in awe, an abstract arrangement of colours and shapes or the Sistine Chapel?
What is more inspiring, the steady stream of free flow poets at open mic night, or the collected works of Cummings?
The vast majority, if asked what is their fav song, fav book or fav painting will almost always note something that is not off the cuff but is a refined, intentional, polished piece of art. Worked art is like a sharpened arrow that penetrates the mind, heart and soul, digging in and inspiring us to be, if only for a moment, a better person...where as the vast majority of stream of conscious works are nothing more than post it notes begging to be greater.
I didn't have a chance to comment on something Mousey said earlier regarding free flow being the starting point of great work...and i totally agree, but usually, not always, winging it and sending it out into the world as is, usually ends up as flat as a tap dancer's souffle.
"I've rambled. This post is written terribly. I don't know where I'm going with it. "
Me either, what the fuck are you trying to say??? LOL..kidding of course. I think you made some really good points.
Hi Soozen,
"Well, I can't say I rushed to comment, I took my time.
I don't know Mousey any more than I know you although I find her output witty and creative and wouldn't mind her at all as a friend."
My apologies for assuming the above, I thought perhaps you were compelled to defend a friend's work because if you had taken the time to read what Mousey wrote (asking for a critique and the actual poem it was regarding), then perhaps you may not have bothered with some of your comments. Instead I felt you rushed in, rather than forming a well based rebuttal to what I had written in my critique, to defend that writing style and to dissaude me from commenting further on other people's work unless I was solicited.... ie. "IF we ask for it. " .
"You don't know me, you don't particularly like the type of poetry I write and enjoy reading (spontaneous streams) and that is fine."
You're right, spontaneous stream poetry isn't my favourite but I only say that because generally speaking, in that format, so much crap is put out to the public in comparison to other styles. I say public because these are public forums. However, that has no bearing on what may or may not be a good poem regardless of format. Nor does it mean that i can't appreciate or comprehend a well written poem in any format including spotaneous streams. I'm not a huge fan of sonnets, but I think Shakespeare was a brilliant writer who put out a tremendous amount of spectacular work. I don't like mushrooms either, in fact they make me want to throw up, but I do know what they are supposed to smell and taste like.
"Please know I felt just as free to disagree with your assessment as you felt free to make it."
For sure, I totally realize it. Not only that but I openly welcome comments on my critique...but I do find it odd coming from someone who was just advocating only giving opinions IF asked for them. I was trying to point out earlier, I find it strange you have no trouble speaking up about someone's opinion of a poem if you disagree, yet shy away from forming or sharing a direct opinion with the author (unless of course its praise).
"Maybe you think Ginsberg was 'preachy' for example, but until I read more of what 'type' of poetry you, yourself write and enjoy, how can I know other than what is written here with your recent critiques?"
What does your opinion, of my opinion on Ginsberg have to do with Mousey asking me for my opinion of her work? Do you think if we agree on Ginsberg that suddenly my opinion on other works should be accepted? I'll gladly dissect some Ginsberg for you if you will do the same. Read both Mousey's poem and my critique with a critical eye and then tell me if my comments are way off base...and all this wariness towards my writing credentials coming from a woman who states " don't see myself as a 'writer' or a 'poet' " and tends to only put out gold star comments.
"I take great pride in what I do and if someone walked into my space and started 'criticising' my creative output"
So you liken a billion people sharing the internet to your space? You find posting poetry on the internet the same as painting or sculpting in your workshop? You think opinions of a poem posted on the internet is the same as walking into your space and criticising your creative output? I bet you'd gladly welcome a thousand "Brilliant Poem!!!" false criticisms, yet you'll shriek at the one "I dislike it." honest criticism. When I tell someone that I think their poem is wonderful, I mean it with every part of who I am and they know I mean it as well because I also usually offer reasoning to my rhyme. When I say a poem is great, the poet knows their work has truly inspired me because I don't hand them out to every shit poem written. What does it mean when you say it? Are you just saying it so when they read your work, they will say the same thing?
"I would want to know what expertise they come with."
So a valid, logical, well stated point is only as good as the papers attached to the person making them? If someone tells you a rock is falling on your head, do you need to know if they studied the effects of gravity first? Basically it sounds as if before someone tells you what they think, you need to find out if they think just like you.
"When I see what I consider poor or sloppy work by others, it is not my inclination to tell them as the artist's ego knows no bounds and I am no glutton for punishment."
Ugh, more artist mythos bullshit. Even a painter like Pollock, who's claim to fame was "direct painting", studied his ass off(which comprises of both being critical and recieving criticism), practised (the same) and recieved direct positive and negative criticism from his peers and teachers. Furthermore, when an artist shows their work, they are asking your opinion of it, unfortunately some just want to hear the good comments so they can live in a bubble or some don't have the artistic integrity to provide an honest opinion.
If I were a pyschologist I would probably say it sounds like you don't comment on sloppy work to save your feelings, not theirs...because you refer to their work in regards to your feelings of punishment. You are probably so worried someone will dislike your work that you would dare not say you disliked someone elses....just an opinion.
And I know some just write for pleasure or therapy, it is a valid reason to write, but they wouldn't post it if they didn't want feedback. Why else would someone post? I mean this is an artist's forum called Creative Writing on a site design to promote art and not Dr. Schmell's Group Therapy Session.
"I let my work and art stand on its own, a reflection of the care and love of what I do."
Great, but why should someone like what you've done?... because you care and love it? Fine and dandy, but don't show it if you are afraid someone won't like it based solely on your love of your own work. So I have to ask, why do you show your work?
Why must I be subjected to someone's opinions or criticisms of the world in artistic form inside a public place yet be silent unless asked to respond or only say "nice" things? Isn't art and the showing of such about response? Isn't art a reactionary thing?
"I will take Doreen's word that what you do is helpful to her and others that you have critiqued and that she appreciates your viewpoint in order to polish her poetry. Mousey also has stated that she appreciates your take. So be it."
I will gladly admit that my critiques aren't as useful as posting the lyrics to "Si me voy antes que vos", in response to a poem then having another person translate the song lyrics...but hopefully there is a place for open, honest critiques IF someone asks for them.
"Good lesson for me to mind my own business."
Too bad that's the only lesson you gained from this discussion. So be it.
Take care,
Trev
) that he is mostly concerned with the quality of writing (tell me if I am barking up the wrong tablet) as opposed to the journaling aspect of stream of consciousness. I think it is good that someone would take the time to give you his opinion and work hard to do so with such a gentle hand.
...I enjoy critiquing because it allows me to read new work from poets you don't always find in book stores, and also because I find looking at writing in more critical way has helped my writing in return...not only from the work itself but often from discussions that follow. Well if you have no problem with criticism, both good and bad, useless and helpful, then I might take you up on that invite in the future. BTW its all worth my time, not like the time and energy I put into an opinion is more valuble than what a person puts into their poem.
You know what I mean. 
