"Trevor, I think that this is a series of miscommunications an misunderstandings of differing points of view. Your language in response to me seemed a bit demeaning and dismissive, at least that is how I took it."
Well I think on a couple things there has been some misunderstanding and I'll gladly blame myself for some of it. As far as being demeaning, I'm sorry you took some of it as such. I haven't called you any names, all I've done was disagree with you and explained why. And yes, I was being dismissive at times, but I also explained why as well. Perhaps I lack some social skills and I'm a little too direct at times. I think often questioning people, and the extent of my questioning, sometimes is taken as rudeness...which it may actually be, but my intent is not as such, but rather a direct, open discussion.
"Well you did mention me three times in that post 1) hinting that I should only comment IF asked to 2) rebuttaling my "preachy" comments regarding Mousey's work with some vague statement 3) talking about concern over quality vs. journal type stream of conciousness - which has nothing to do with the polished piece of poetry Mousey showed - so by that point it was apparent you really didn't really read Mousey's poem or the critique – looking at something and reading it are two different things. "
The above quote was my example of why to some extent, I felt you were commenting on my critique. "Trevor, My first response was not a "critique of your critique" as you continue to exert" Again, I have no problem with comments on what I say, I do honestly welcome them whether I agree with them or not, but you can't say you weren't commenting on what I had said then go on to reference what I said. Just makes no sense.
"You asked for examples:
"some vague statement"? okay, I didn't think it was vague, it was just my take. "
For me, I found it vague. You didn't go into much detail plus you were talking about stream of conscious writing and referring to my comments made to Mousey regarding a polished poem and the polished poem itself. For me that didn't make much sense.
"some vague statement", is me being lazy and not cutting and pasting or quoting directly. Personally I don't see how saying it was a vague statement is so offensive. Perhaps I'm wrong though and if that bothered you then I apologize, perhaps I could have worded it better.
"apparent you really didn't read Mousey's poem or the critique..."
I didn't? That's news to me. I thought I did but maybe you know me better? "
This is a definite assumption on my part. However, its based upon your initial comments which I feel have very little to do with the poem in question, yet references the poem with comments on the critique of it. For me it seemed like you were talking about two different things at the same time. In my opinion, you seemed more interested in explaining your viewpoint of stream of conscious writing, which had nothing to do with what I had said or Mousey's poem. Perhaps I totally misinterpreted that response. Again, my apologies if this is the case.
"I mentioned you only because I didn't want to offend you or your point of view, just give mine. I thought I did it tactfully, apparently you didn't. "
No, I thought you did it tactfully as well, except the IF part. Again you didn't offend me...though that IF part annoyed me... But does your tactful response mean I can't disagree with you disagreeing with me? "Trevor sees some of it as 'preachy' but I must kindly disagree." - am I not supposed to respond to that and let you know why I think you are wrong and the poem is preachy? Personally I thought I was being tactful as well, I raised questions, cited examples and left the door open for further discussion. Please don't mistake me disagreeing with you as an attack. I'm only questioning what you had written. You disagreed with my comments, I disagreed with yours, where's the fault in that? Wasn't it you who initially disagreed with me...again I have no problemos with this, but why do I get the feeling that I'm the bad guy in your books for disagreeing with you?
"Maybe I should work on that reading properly stuff. "
Again, if I was wrong and you did actually study the poem and my critique and came up with the conclusion you did, then my apologies. My response was based upon my thoughts that your critique spent a lot of time discussing stream of conscious writing, while at the same time referencing a poem and a critique that was not in regards to such.
"I was being condescending by capitalizing IF? More misunderstanding, I think."
Perhaps my understanding on the use of capitalizing words out of place is wrong. But I've always thought it was used to stress a point and I've often seen it practised by adults while talking down to kids, or bosses to employess, or teachers to students. I've never seen it in a good book or essay because the author usually assumes that the reader can comprehend what they are saying without having to stress their points with capitalization. So I found it conscending because I fully capable of understanding what you are saying without stressing IF's. Furthermore, I found it conscending because in one hand you are saying only comment if asked for it, then you do go on to comment about my "preachy" opinion "Trevor sees some of it as 'preachy' but I must kindly disagree."...which again is fine, I have no problem with you disagreeing, save for the fact that you had just mentioned that I'm not supposed to comment on what you write, but by you commenting on what I did - you are saying its okay to comment on what I write. Again, I was not offended by this (annoyed - yes), nor do I think I responded rudely to this, all I tried to do was show why I think this is wrong.
"Coming from a woman..." Sorry, but I don't think you know me well enough to make a statement like that as it is another assumption about what I do or say about other's work. Have you read everything I have written in response to others?"
First off, perhaps the wording of that was a bit harsh, my apologies,...However, I don't see why the validity of my critique or my credentials should come into question and not yours? If you want to pick apart my critique and show examples of why I was off basis on my opinions, then please feel free. However, if a lot of what I said in my critique did make sense or at least has subjective and objective value, then why are my credentials to be questioned? I could see if it was because I was talking out my ass and put forth a bunch of wild notions regarding the poem - but I thought it was a fairly well written critique. Perhaps it wasn't. But asking if I have the credentials to form a valid critique is not a fair rebuttal to a critique.
I have read a lot of your responses and almost all were little more than positive reinforcement. (If I must cite all of them I will, but its easily acessible through Search) Nothing wrong with positive reinforcement, it certainly has its place and the intent of it is good hearted.... but if that is all you provide, then really is it any more than an ego booster? If its a garauntee you will like what they write, then what's the point, they already know what you will say. It's like preaching to the converted. You seem to skip over commenting on anything you dislike in a piece, then follow it up with "Good stuff".... if you don't explain why you thought a poem was good, then where is the validity in calling something good? No more useful then just saying "I hate it". Heck, sometimes you even just write a poem in response to a poem..which is fine too, seems like a lot of people enjoy that here and I'm sure its fun at times...but my point is, if you aren't offering any useful commentary about someone's writing except for ego boosting, then what is the point of commentary? We already know what you will say about someone's work, "its all good". I guess its fun for some, but by a handful of responses I have recieved regarding critiques, I think a number of people here wish that others would occasionally spend time to read, understand and then comment upon their writing especially if they spent a lot of time and energy creating it rather than just lip service, or a response to a poem in the form of a poem. I don't see why you can say I kindly disagree with Trevor, but why can't you do it for someone's poetry? Again, I'm happy you disagreed with me, this means we can discuss the nature of the poem, which is what this should be all about...however, I was disappointed that you took my rebuttal towards your initial comments straight to heart. I may be wrong, but I get the impression you're thinking I've been attacking you, which is most definitely not the case. I am however, disagreeing with you and trying to show why.
However, one critique you offered that I read I thought was wonderful - http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... &highlight Now if that was like the majority of your comments on other people's work, I would gladly eat mud. I think it was a truly great critique that probably helped him out a lot...and all you did was suggest where the errors might be in his work. However, so far, this is the only one I've found where you really took the time to examine someone's work and comment as if you did so. So again, often I think you are guilty of lip service, which is far less helpful or honest as the critique I just referenced.
"I know nothing about you or why you feel you are an expert in poetry critique."
When did I say I was an expert? I have never said I was an expert, ever and I don't pretend to be. I'm just a fella who enjoys discussing literature. Look at my critique, break it down against the poem, and then say if you think there is any merit or not in my comments before you ask if I'm a mongrel or a pure breed asshole
To me it sounded a lot like you were dismissing my critique partially based on not knowing what my background was, and not based on the content of the critique itself. Which I feel is unfair."When I said I would want to know the expertise they come with...I would value someone's critique and take it more seriously if I knew they had some expertise in what they were critiquing. That is all I was saying and I think it is valid."
I think its valid to some extent, I mean we don't ask a doctor their opinion about plumbing unless using it as a metaphor for a septic bowel. However, I wouldn't consider a down and out junky's opinion any less than a Poet Laureate's opinion on a poem if the junky did present valid points. What's the diff if a "Ka!" comes from the mouth of a crow or an eagle?
"Hummm, I irritated you quite a bit, it seems."
Not as much as you probably think...I wasn't revising my list of people to kill before I die or anything like that..lol
"Another bit of misunderstanding and assumption. I don't mind constructive criticism, especially if it is coming from someone that knows something about what it is that I do."
Then what was with the "IF someone asks for it" comment? In one breath you say only comment on my work if I ask for it, and in another breath you say I don't mind comments on my work. Perhaps its just me you don't want to comment on your work? I hate doing this, I really hate having to spew out a resume for someone to validate my opinions. I think the logic found in a lot of my comments should hold their own and not be questioned on who it is coming from but rather the content. I think its belittling and tantamount to nothing more than a dick measuring contest or grandstanding.....but if I must put out my willy on the table then I must:
I've been published about fifteen times (never kept track) in print, never bothered with the ezine thing ever, though there are some great writing in them. I've had a brief piece in a newspaper once. I write seasonally for a camping magazine (4 years now) but have also been twice featured in "Taddle Creek" magazine, an award winning, respected, literary mag based in Toronto. I've also been published in "Poiesis" which is an annual arts journal that is distributed from N.A. all the way into Scandanavia. I moderated the Critical Analysis Forum at Passions in Poetry for about a year or so. I studied a semester, part time, under Rhea Tregebov, a respected published poet (http://www.nwpassages.com/Profile_book. ... 0919897762) at the University of Ryerson in Toronto. I also have taken a few other unmentionable and very boring writing workshops. I've been in discussion with directors and producers three different times for three different projects, though unfortunately, nothing ever came from it, other than some good feedback. Other than that, I've been writing, and taking writing serious for a handful of years. I have written hundreds of poems, stories, screenplays, shorts and one three act play. I dunno if that is enough to persuade you that I may know something about writing. I'm not sure what your achievement standards are for validating someone's opinion. But again, regardless of what I have or haven't achieved in the field of writing, go back with a critical eye and look at Mousey's poem and then my critique and then state if my comments were valid or not. I would gladly welcome a dissection of my critique if you feel it was erroneous.
"If you or some Joe Blow walked into my tent and started telling me how to do my work or criticising it, I would tend to take it with a grain of salt knowing you know nothing about my craft."
Personally I don't see why you don't feel us Joe Blows can't discern between what we like and dislike and why we feel that way. Art isn't all that hard to understand as it is hard to do, or do well.
"I have had a very few ignorant folks walk in and say something to the effect that they can get something similar and cheaper at a department store. No, they can't. Each piece I make is unique and hand crafted, not made in a sweat shop in a third world country by exploited peoples."
I could see why you would be offended by that. That is kind of insulting. However if these same people walked in and said they loved your work you would accept their critique whole heartedly and appreciate the praise. I'm sure you wouldn't say, "No they don't love it because they know nothing of my work, they are just Joe Blows." But it seems that if these same people walked in and said, "I dislike your work", you dismiss it as they are just Joe Blows and know nothing of your art. So in one hand Joe Blow's opinion is valid, regardless of their background, if it is praise...but dismissed because of their background if it is not praise.
"They can buy it or not if they choose. "
For sure, they're just not allowed to comment on it unless they know as much about art as you do...lol...jk
"I am not out to just sell jewelry, I am doing it for other reasons other than just making a buck."
I don't doubt that one bit. The reality of the artist is we must eat as well. Paint, paper, beads etc. all cost money. I hope you didn't think I was implying that your art is the same as a Walmart jewelry stand and its about the money. I don't think you thought that, but I just wanted to be clear if that thought crossed your mind so as not to offend.
"As you can probably tell, I feel passionate about what I create."
Yes for sure and I think that's great. I've seen some of your work on your site and I think some of its very beautiful. Your passion reflects in the pieces. I think some of the designs are wonderful and some have a south american/latin american tribal feel to them - I'm guessing this influence comes from your Texan background. I felt that your choice in colours was excellent. I wondered while looking at them if there was a certain theme, or a story you were trying to tell with each piece and how much of it was simply esthetic choices .... However, I don't have a background in jewelry making so feel free to dismiss it because I am a Joe Blow.
But There was one piece I didn't like. It was largely made from washers. I found it cluttered, busy and didn't enjoy the colour choice of the interwoven beads. I didn't think it was a very esthetic pleasing piece, yet still wonder if there was a story behind it.... However, I don't have a background in jewelry making so feel free to dismiss it because I am a Joe Blow.
"I will never pass up a chance to tell someone when I appreciate or enjoy what they do and I will leave the critiquing to those that enjoy it."
You don't think telling someone that you enjoyed their work is a form of critiquing? It is. And there is nothing wrong with that if you truly do enjoy the work you commented on, but if you only choose to say good things about a piece, when there are things that you may feel weren't so good about it, then isn't that kinda like lip service? Especially if a person is looking for good advice about their work? I have nothing against praising someone's work, but if that's all you hand out then there is no juxtaposition of your opinion....just steady praise. We all know what's coming when you comment on someone's work...praise. I don't mean that harshly, but am I lying?
So really you do critique but in your own way...which is rightfully your perogative, though I disagree with it because i don't think it is very helpful to many. But to try and get back on topic, I guess the puzzling thing to me is why you seemed to get bent out of shape that I disagreed with you disagreeing with me. You choose to comment briefly on what I said about Mousey's poem, which is great - I totally encourage that, but when I disagreed with your comments, you seemed to take it as an attack of sorts, I felt you took it too personally.
"I know what I like and if I don't like it, I leave it alone as I am no expert and know little about what makes a good poem."
So by your earlier admittance, a critique is usually only as useful as the expertise of those who are giving it. And to apply a little logic to it, if you are not an expert, your comments regarding any work should be dismissed based upon your background in this field. So really anything you like we can dismiss as you not being educated enough in this field to form an opinion of whether its good or bad. In fact we can safely assume that if you are not educated in this field then you really don't know if you are in fact enjoying bad poetry, and disliking good poetry. So really, why do you even bother to comment if anything you say regarding writing is based upon your Joe Blow knowledge of it? Therefore we can assume any praise you give is meaningless and is based upon ignorance. So anything you say regarding writing is largely irrelevant and unnecessary and should be completely ignored. Now all that is not meant to be mean spirited but just trying to illustrate the dangers of validating someone's opinion based upon their resume.
"Now if you want to discuss haiku... I have a least studied that but there are hundreds if not thousands of opinions in that writing field and I don't claim expertise there either as I consider myself always a student."
I've always felt that everyone is both a teacher and a student at the same time. I've always hoped I can learn something from everyone, as I hope they may learn something from me. I thought that haiku critique of yours I mentioned earlier was excellent and I'm sure you could probably help out a lot of us here with your insight into its ancient workings. It's a shame you don't like helping out others in this way, you probably have a lot to offer with your insight into haikus.
"Ahhh, but I have to disagree with you here again for artists are unlike insurance agents or coffee shop workers in that what they are putting a part of themselves out there, exposed to the world and it is very personal."
And I totally agree that artists do put themselves out there in a personal way hence my statement :Sure an artist puts out their thoughts and feelings to show the world and is disheartened if rejected...sure that's a blow to the ego But my whole point is do you think an artist's ego is hurt more than any other member of society when rejected?...or do you think its just hurt more often? Some artists I know don't even blink an eye when rejected, they just move on to something else unphased...I would even go as far to say that it is the rejection of their work that makes them stronger people and stronger artists...whereas other artists it bothers more....but I can say the exact same thing for everyone I've met in all walks of life.
"I don't know about you but I live with an artist, hang with artists and am an artist...I know a little about them and I think your dismissing what I say as bullshit is, well, you tell me?"
Yes I am dismissing your claim that artists have more fragile egos than everyone else as bullshit. It's rubbish. To me that's as silly as saying artists feel things more deeply than the rest of the world. To me its hodge podge - artist's mythos. For every great artist who cut off their ear or suckled the barrel of a shotgun because they felt misunderstood and rejected by society there are a thousand "Joe Blows" who did the same because their spouse left them, their job sucked and a ton of other reasons. Hell, maybe its the artist who has the stronger of egos because it is them who keep putting themselves out there knowing that people may not like their creations. They keep putting it out and taking it. If it was so crushing to their fragile ego, why wouldn't they break as easy? Wouldn't you say the tougher boxer is the one who keeps getting back in the ring and not the one who won't enter it? Personally I think an artist lives in all of us, there really isn't much of a seperation for me between artist's and anyone else except for perhaps the way they make their living and what they are passionate about. I think everyone is passionate about something and wants to express creativity and be heard, just not everyone chooses that path as the forefront in their lives.
"When I said I think I hit a sore spot, I was referring to your response to Doreen about how you are sick and tired of people's reactions to your critiques on other web sites...that's all."
Yes I guess that is kind of a sore spot for me. But I guess in all honesty this subject is a love hate thing for me. I hate it because it can be pretty exhausting, but I love it because discussions like these often help people see their own, and other's writing in a different light. I hope people take what I and other people have said on this thread as encouragement, and not as the opposite. I don't think anyone here is trying to do otherwise.
I said: "Btw, when did disagreement become so unfashionable?
Your response: Not with me, obviously.
" lol...for sure and I think its great that you have continued this discussion and I appreciate all that you have said even though I don't agree with some of it.
"Again, I irritated you with something I considered benign and all I meant was that I respect Doreen's opinion (I do consider her a friend) and Mousey was totally into your critique. Nothing more."
Well perhaps it was benign, and meant in a superfluous way.... its just that "so be it" is rarely used in a benign way. So I took it as to have some meaning, I guess more meaning than intended. My apologies for reading too much into it.
"You stated several times that you were irritated by me or what I said. Is that from your head or heart?"
Hmmm, I guess a bit of both but I'd like to think I'm cold hearted enough to say mostly from the head..lol From the heart: I would say what irritated me was the "IF" thing. I found it condescending for reasons I explained earlier and I thought perhaps you overstepped your boundries and into mine to imply that I save my opinions on this forum until asked for them. Yet you felt fine commenting on what I had said...which again, is great, but I found it irritating because in one hand you are trying to stop me from taking the same liberities that you are enjoying.
From the head: I thought your critique on Mousey's poem and on my critique wasn't very logical and not well based. Like I had said earlier, it almost seemed as if you didn't even read the poem or my critique because not much of your response was based on either, yet it footnoted both. If you look back to my initial response to yours, it's main focus was still on your thoughts on Mousey's poem and my critique and not as muddled as where we are now.
"I must admit, I have found all of this explaining myself to you quite exhausting. I do need a break and I am tired. I will be back. I have been here since the beginning and enjoy throughly my participation and the people I have met here."
Yeah it is tiring to think...and honestly I don't mean that in a jabbing way...I'm exhausted as well....but this is what a discussion entails, a lot of thought...personally I love it...I got a lot out of it and I'm glad we were able to have this pow wow.
"I respect many of them but respect is not something I give lightly."
Well I guess we differ here as well. Respect is something I give to everyone immediately, just as I hope people will respect me as well. I don't think it should be earned, that would be like looking down on someone till they meet your approval. Nor do I take respect away if they disagree with me, in fact, it often solidifies a reason why I should respect them.
"I was friendly and welcoming to you when I responded to your critique of my poem but in as nice as way as I knew how, I pointed out that I didn't ask for the critique of my writing nor did I want it."
First off you were very welcoming when I commented on your poem...and I appreciate that, thank-you. But if you found my commentary on your work so bothersome, why didn't you say something there instead of thanking me for the comments and then waiting to mention something on someone else's thread implying that I shouldn't comment unless asked for it. Plus, for me, a nice way of asking someone not to comment on your work isn't implying it with "IF's" on a completely unrelated thread. What's so friendly about that?
And for the record...I'm positive you would have never asked me to stop commenting on your work "IF" I had initially put "Marvellous Poem" as my critique. Which leads me back to, you only wanting to hear positive reinforcement - back slapping - lip service because you can't honestly tell me if I had put, "Best Poem ever" you would have asked me to stop expressing my opinions on your work or imply that I should only comment "IF" someone asks me to. Btw, are you starting to feel that capitalizing "IF" might be kinda construed as condescending?
Furthermore, and now this is becoming a redundant statement, why should you have the liberty of commenting on anything I write "Trevor sees some of it as 'preachy' but I must kindly disagree...." and not allow me the same liberty? Not even in regards to your comments on something I said. That's just hypocritical. And again, I have no problem with you commenting on my work, but I should be allowed that same liberty in regards to yours. Why on god's polluted brown earth should you be allowed to comment on what I write, "Please know I felt just as free to disagree with your assessment as you felt free to make it." when you won't grant me the same?
"Your slam of Arcadia's posting of the song from her country and her translation in that thread also didn't sit well with me."
Hmmm, how was it a slam of what she said? Maybe the way I was making a point was a little sarcastic, but it was hardly a slam....it was an example of the juxtaposition of two forms of responses to people's poetry. "I will gladly admit that my critiques aren't as useful as posting the lyrics to "Si me voy antes que vos", in response to a poem then having another person translate the song lyrics...but hopefully there is a place for open, honest critiques IF someone asks for them. " Why did you take offense? If I had initially commented on your poem with song lyrics, would you then have welcomed more responses from me? or would the rule still imply that I should only comment if you ask for it? Obviously by your response to my crit of your work, you value song lyrics as responses more so than a thoughtful critique -- because I haven't seen you asking Arcadia to only comment if asked. So I will gladly admit that my critiques aren't as useful as posting lyrics....because obviously song lyrics written by someone else than the commentor and in a language you don't speak fluently, are more coveted than a thoughtful, articulate critique of your work, even one that you agree with; "I have to agree with you on most of your assessments although I will never publish or post this poem any other place but here" --- was stated by yourself regarding my comments on your poem. I have to assume all this because you've asked me to stop commenting on your work, but not Arcadia. So really, was it such a "slam", as you so put it? Am I off on this? And to go back to one of your earlier comments stating you welcomed comments from those you feel have enough expertise, is this really the truth when you have asked me -- someone you seemed to have agreed with, to stop commenting, yet allow someone posting copied song lyrics in a language you can't fully translate -- to keep posting????? ---- notice all the question marks because I find this really, truly, fucking baffling.
"I hope we can start anew sometime."
LOL...please don't take this offensively but that sounds a little dramatic doesn't it? I mean do you say this to everyone who disagrees with you or did you reserve it for me?
Personally I wish you'd feel fine about a couple of adults discussing art issues in an art forum instead of thinking we just waged war. So what, we don't see eye to eye on some things and have been telling each other why we feel and think the way we do...what's the biggie? Personally I don't see a problemo with continuing on, I don't have a hatchet to bury and I have no grudge against you. I still think you are a nice woman and respect you, though I disagree with you. Further still, I say all this honestly under the impression that you probably are leaning towards hatred when thinking of me and don't even respect my opinion enough to freely allow me to comment on your work. "I know there are those here that know and respect you and your knowledge."
LOL...but let me guess...you's ain't one of 'em?
That's fine, you've already stated that people must earn your respect because you don't give it lightly....double-wink But let me ask you this, how am I supposed to gain your respect or show you my knowledge if I'm not allowed to comment on your work and you're not allowed to comment on mine? If we both don't allow each other into each other's art, then why bother with art? Should I copy out some song lyrics in Portuguese or quote an Italian poem? Will that gain your respect and show you my knowledge? ... lol...okay now that was a bit of a jab, so feel free to be offended but I couldn't help myself...it was teed up and I had out my 3 iron out of the bag....long ball...2 feet from the cup...lolTo go back to the whole respect thing, I guess I find it disheartening that you give more respect to copied song lyrics then you do to an open, honest critique (and a very gentle one I might add). Sense makes no Trevor for. So if this is how respect is earned by you, then count me out of that sacred loop because I'm not the type to jump through a hoop just to stroke your fragile artist's ego....sounds to me like lip service and not honesty.
And if Arcadia reads this: I hope you don't take what i said about your copied lyrics as a slam, (alt
I'm stunned you think this conversation was a mistake. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things this means zilch, but we have made an impression on those who read this, just as they have on us as we read their words....doesn't that mean anything to you? Life isn't just about pleasantries, you're not sitting on the porch, you are interacting with other people at an interactive site. I'm sorry if you had your blinders on but there are other horses on the track with you.
