Critique debate - moved from mousey1s CW thread

[judih]

good an opportunity as any.
i love SooZen's washer bracelet. i covet it and want it and SooZen feels my want.

i love SooZen's beaded bracelets and origami earrings and danglies and beaded necklaces.

i love SooZen's humour and sense of style. She's a sexy, wonderful, aesthetically attuned, infinitely affinitive woman.

Trevor - i'm not sure how long i've seen your name, enjoyed or even simply read your words, but you're an energized engager. You think, you write and you keep a sense of humour.

i love this Studio 8. Everytime i step in, i find a banner that tingles my eye. i find music recorded and offered (l-rod, doreen). i see new thoughts, new names, new poetry, new facets of people known to be talented in other spheres (cecil, kurt, abstroint, 4 degrees, norman for godz sakes, jimboloco, glorious a, who no?)

this is a special location.

judih

[Trevor]

Hi Soozen,

"rushes back in... Hah! Actually, I have a bit of time this morning and since I am in a better mood, I thought I would take the time to reply to you Trevor."

I'm not supposed to be here either, I've got plans too but as you can see, I'm back for more...some people call it compulsion, but I'd rather call it mildly insane....Well glad to hear you are in a better mood, I'm sorry I put you on the defensive. Someone wrote me a letter pointing out that perhaps I was being a bit defesive as well. I went back and read some of what I wrote, and yeah, perhaps at times I was defensive as well.

"It seems that you are as prone to exageration as I am prone to be a drama queen. "

LOL....no way!!! Actually you are absolutely right, I do tend to over-inflate my balloons of reason from time to time....again refer back to the insane part or the natural tendency of a writer.

"heh. I really don't see where I tried to limit your critiquing in my first post to Mousey unless you are refering to my "IF" "

The IF was the only thing I was refering to. I don't think you tried to limit my comments to Mousey and I know you knew that she asked for critiqueing. I guess I was a little annoyed that I took the time to give your poem a very good read and commented on it the best I knew how, and you seemed fine with it initially. Then all of a sudden you pop up and subtley imply that I no longer comment on your work unless you ask me, I also felt like you were trying to state this is the general tone of the forums and perhaps suggesting that for others, I do the same. Which may or may not be what you were implying, because along with a penchant for exageration, I also tend to read too much into things sometimes. Which kinda rubbed me sideways because there you were commenting on my words at will, while asking me never to do the on your words.

"If someone asks you for your opinion, it is not, nor will be my tact to stop you. Do as you like, I do. Take liberty, take New York, take a haik (bad joke, sorry.)"

LOL...well I won't critique your joke, I'm not that obssesive ....But for me the liberty is to be allowed to express my opinion without being asked for it. I can't imagine a world where we all had to wait till someone asked for an opinion (yes another exageration to help illustrate a point) I don't think it would be fair to allow someone to post jibberish as a response to a poem without asking for it, then deny someone to post a critique of sorts without asking. The right to express oneself includes both and all in between. I'm never offended by a "Good Work" comment on my writing, but I am disappointed occasionally when I see one because for me, if all I inspired was a teachers red pen mark at the end of my hard work, then I feel I don't really know what they are thinking or they may be just placating me. But I also realize people participate in writing at all levels, for all sorts of reasons...some just don't have the time...some just don't want anymore than entertainment...and I really do respect that, however I never know what to make of a "good work" comment...But again, to each their own and I'm not going to force anyone to change, though I like to encourage it, just as I hope no one will try to force me to stop the way I partake in writing...and I hope others too give me new perspectives on how to look at writing.

Further more I've always felt an art forum is a great place for encouragement, and we both do in our own ways as best as we see fit, but the only way I really know how is to be open and honest with someone's work. I don't like saying I dislike something anymore than they want to hear it, but I feel like I'm cheating someone out of a complete perspective of their work if I ignore things that may be "wrong" with a piece.

"Frankly, your charms, wit, cleverness and especially the articulate part are starting to win me over. I don't think the bead stapler thingee will fly though, I have never tried to staple a bead and no desire to do so. (This is really getting silly.) "

Whew, I was beginning to think I was losing my mojo for a second...lol...but seriously, I'm glad you aren't thinking me so much the bad guy anymore. For me this discussion wasn't just about disagreeing with a couple things you said, but a lot of it was also about art and they way we percieve it and practise it and so on.

"I think I would like the title of "Trevor Critique Police" as I have no title and I could use one. What does it pay?"

LOL....hell, if you find a way to get paid for that let me know....we could be on to something....

"Nothing I create is a necessity, it is all just for fun and boy, life would suck without some fun (and beautiful adornments.) "

Yes for sure, fun is a good enough reason to do anything...unless the brand of fun consists of lighting things on fire or bowling with grenades. My writing isn't close to where I want it to be, that's why I look towards other writers to help, and in return I try to help them...but I do realize fun has a big part in why people write too...and I want to give people that space to do so as well...hell, believe it or not, I like to have fun as well

"I can't figure out the baseball and pitcher analogy anyway... "

I haven't a fucking clue what I was trying to say either...lol...actually I was trying to say some people do things solely for the purpose of fun without trying to achieve anything more than enjoyment. You don't have to aspire to be a major league pitcher to enjoy a fun game of catch...blame it on Truck'n, he's the one who brought baseball into this...lol

"Let me make this clear Trev, I HAVE NO DESIRE TO STOP YOUR CRITIQUING (caps intentional) or anything else you may want to write here. Okay?"

Well then you're fired as my police nation...lol
I'm glad to hear that. I did get the impression you were trying to imply that I shouldn't critique anyone's work here unless asked for it. Hell woman, why didn't you say this in the first place!!! lol

"The only reason I responded to you in the first place was the anger that I perceived in your first reply to me and some not so subtle raps and plenty of assumptions about my motives. That is water under the bridge. Let's move on, k?"

Sounds good to me. For the record though, I wasn't angry at all in my response to you. I was really trying to open up a discussion about Mousey's poem and our critiques on it. That's all, and I'm sorry if it came off like an attack. I often feel tones are lost, or misinterpreted...its hard to get the feel of someone, unless you've known them for awhile, what they are trying to imply, or the tones...ya know, all the subtleties (sp?) that go into communication.

"I think we would get along just fine and dandy if we were to meet."

If by get along you mean we'd be at each other's throats then ya, we'd get along fine...lol....I had said to Truck'n (I think it was him), I don't think we are much different personality wise, we just have some varying opinions is all, and we're both passionate when expressing them.

"You would recognize me right away, I'm the one in the "victim garb" that farts a lot and has waaaay too much jewelry on. "

LOL...too funny....well you can't miss me either, I'm the one dragging around the ten foot high soap box and frothing at the mouth...lol

"Sure...but only if you use song lyrics translated from a foreign language. Okay, I am the one being serious here, let's (appropriate apostrophe) give this a try."

Well considering I'm only truly fluent in Assholeish, then I have to pass:) But i'll post some lyrics by a famous Canadian who happens to be billingual, in fact french is his maiden tongue, in tribute to you I'm really glad you decided to stay and discuss this further. I think not only did it allow us to more clearly see each other's viewpoints and understand each other's perspectives on art and commentary...but also, I hope it gave other people new perspectives and reason to think about how they percieve art and commentary. It may be arrogant to say, but I think we inspired a few people here to think about art a little more closely, whether it be for fun, or for more serious pursuits....I think we also scared a few people off as well, but what's a little collateral damage anyhow...if its good enough fer G.W., then its good enough for me...lol

"Are you into critiquing haiku because I don't tend to write much poetry unless I am streaming...? "

I don't write much haiku...I'm such a blabber mouth that its hard for me to limit my words...lol... but I'd love to learn more about it...all I really know is the basics, nature theme and syllable count...so maybe some time you can teach me a few things about it....and then I'll get out my red pen and tear apart your haikus...lol...jk. But I'd love to give critiquing haiku's a shot...always a great way to learn more about something....but if I do, feel free to point out where I'm wrong about technique and such.

Anyways, good luck with battling the wind gods, have a good weekend. Oh here are those lyrics I said I was going to post:

Suzane - by Leonard Cohen

Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river
You can hear the boats go by
You can spend the night beside her
And you know that she's half crazy
But that's why you want to be there
And she feeds you tea and oranges
That come all the way from China
And just when you mean to tell her
That you have no love to give her
Then she gets you on her wavelength
And she lets the river answer
That you've always been her lover
And you want to travel with her
And you want to travel blind
And you know that she will trust you
For you've touched her perfect body with your mind.
And Jesus was a sailor
When he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching
From his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain
Only drowning men could see him
He said "All men will be sailors then
Until the sea shall free them"
But he himself was broken
Long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human
He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone
And you want to travel with him
And you want to travel blind
And you think maybe you'll trust him
For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.

Now Suzanne takes your hand
And she leads you to the river
She is wearing rags and feathers
From Salvation Army counters
And the sun pours down like honey
On our lady of the harbour
And she shows you where to look
Among the garbage and the flowers
There are heroes in the seaweed
There are children in the morning
They are leaning out for love
And they will lean that way forever
While Suzanne holds the mirror
And you want to travel with her
And you want to travel blind
And you know that you can trust her
For she's touched your perfect body with her mind.

[Traveller13]

yikes! all that?
I've been away way too long

trevor, yes I was suggesting what I was suggesting. and it is probably true, when you say that debate is what shapes our society, including it's hindrances. and I don't think that agreeing or disagreeing are the only two options when people exchange their belief systems.
as for the world of science and politics, wether it's "good" or "bad" is another debate.
I don't have anything against that kind of thing either. I was merely suggesting another way to do things. Today I can't exactly remember why I said that, but I apologise if anyone got the impression that I was telling them how to behave.

[hester_prynne]

Whoa.
Lots to read, lots to read.

I keep thinking about how sometimes when I walk into a room and say something and it gets taken to heart in a way I didn't expect. Then I start thinking, "man, why do people take me so seriously"? then I'll wail to myself, "why is it that I can say the same thing as someone else yet folks get mad at me and not the other person?
Then I go on from there and say to myself, "am I being grandiose, or are they just giving me too much power"

I always end up critiquing myself to get the answer.

Great read, great thought-provoking thread indeed.

H

[Traveller13]

I feel the same way too
that's humans for ya
lol
projecting projections of projections
I don't think people realise when they're doing that

[sooZen]

judih, thanks for the very kind expressions about me. It does my fragile and expanded ego good. Hah!

Note to both you and Trevor: I sold the washer bracelet this last weekend. It was a very cute couple, she loved the bracelet and they came in my tent at least three times so she could put it on. I could see her pleading with him to get it for her but he kept saying they couldn't afford it, didn't bring enough money and maybe he felt like Trevor and didn't like it much. Finally, he rushed over and said she had to visit the "facilities" and he wanted me to hurry and write it up so he could surprise his girlfriend with it because she wanted it so badly. What a sweet guy! I had a feeling that bracelet would have a story to go with it.

This whole thread has been very enlightening for me. I must admit that I got heated at first but the crux of the whole conversation and the fact that Trevor remained a gentleman throughout made it
an argument of ideas and not insults. That is a very good debate no matter what or whom you agree with. Thank you Trevor...that is a sincere complement and not "false praise."

and btw, I love Leonard Cohen, a favorite poet of mine.

SooZen

[stilltrucking]

"This is how I live: The alarm clock starts me. I have a hangover. I am nauseated all morning. The toothpaste frequently makes me heave. I can't keep down orange juice, toast, and tea. I chew gum and go to my car dressed in a suit and a tie. I fight idiots who don't know how to drive on a highway where thousands of cars go too fast and all the signs, streetlights, and policemen are confused and wrong. My car is old and unresponsive. Dies frequently and whistles in its generator. At the office I do the urgent not the important. A friend describes it as "pissing on small fires." The meetings are not to be believed. If a tape recorder were put in the room and then transcribed everyone would think that someone like Perelman or Bemelmans was trying to be funny. It can't be burlesqued. It can't be told All long day long I am humiliated by inferior people who insist that I must do something in less time than it takes, and when I do[ they change it, making it only different, not better,so that I have to do it all over again in even less time. It never should have done in the first place anyway. Then I come home. The same idiots that can't drive are now as furious as I am. We try to kill each other for 30 minutes. Then I am home. I have a cocktail. I have 5 more. Finally I am back in the room. Diner is served (delicious, Mary a fine cook) but I am so loaded and sick by this time I only nibble. Very insulting to Mary. All women deserve big eaters. All men deserve to get huge girth and to pat it proudly. Then to bed and good love if I am capable. Usually I'm still in a rage and/or passing out."

From
Genesis Angels
The saga of Lew Welch and the beat generation
by Aram Saroyan.

Trevor I like the poem, I don't think you made it any better, just different. But I think you are right about the preaching and false morality.

Mousey1 you convinced me about the drugs. I haven't smoked any pot for awhile. Going to just deal with my depression as it is. But I don't feel so clever any more. It was not drugs that killed Lew Welch. Unless you mean prescription medications.

[mousey1]

First off, if anyone wants to comment on something of mine with a fine song or poetry lyric, have at her.....especially if it's Cohen....ooooo baby baby!!!!

Anyhoo, I don't see a poll so I guess that's been dropped by the wayside. Soooooo..... status quo! Say what you will, when you will, how you will, to whomever you will and let the body parts speak for themselves. Sounds just fine to me!

still truckin'......and I quote, you said "preaching and false morality"
Well I say, and I quote, in my most snivelling and whiney voice....."It isssss noooootttttt!!!! I'm so misunderstood! My poetry is so misunderstood! Won't someone please get me, just get me!" Heh Heh!

Seriously tho, that poem is not even about drugs per se, except incidentally, well, that might be a stretch, but it's really about the wasted potential and seeing these people, "junkies and alcoholics", as more than what they appear to be. I wanted to show the loss to society of lives that could otherwise have been so much more. Apparently I fell woefully short in my attempts.....but I shall prevail!

Glad you put aside that devil weed tho!!!!!!

And ya, our cleverness is somehow not so clever when seen in the clean and sober light of day!!!!

Thanks for your kind comments! I suppose they should've been plopped in with my mouse droppings but what the hey.....ain't no rules here we got to abide by.....

FREE FOR ALL!!!!!!!! WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

(sorry, I'm apparently on drugs, mind altering substances..... or maybe it's just zany me! )

[stilltrucking]

All I can think of is all the great stuff that was written by drunk, stoned, and totaly fucked up writters. But I do shed a tear for all the wonderfull work that could have been written by all the babies that have burned to death in all the wars that are going on at this moment in time.

but it's really about the wasted potential and seeing these people, "junkies and alcoholics", as more than what they appear to be.

Oh I get you, yes indeed I do.

Have you ever envied a bum? Have you ever seen some down and out character sitting on a curb and wished you were him? I have.

[Trevor]

Hey Truck'n,

"All I can think of is all the great stuff that was written by drunk, stoned, and totaly fucked up writters. "

More artist mythos crappola...Hemingway said his best work was when he was sober, Bukowski said the same thing, as did Hunter S. Thompson, Morrison's music did suffer the more he indulged, but perhaps Hendrix and the Greatful Dead were exceptions to the rule. Dali didn't need drugs, but perhaps Martha Stewart does. Charlie Parker did his best compositions, like his version of Star Eyes, while battling addiction, not engaging it...and in my opinion, Miles Davis ruined his career with coke...lets not forget Chet Baker who lost his battle with H, and his chops along with two front teeth. Personally I think a lot of times the drunken, drugged out stereotype of the tortured artist is unintentionally played up...Tom Waits is another good example...even when he was a booze hound he said he never worked drunk. Perhaps some artists best work comes because they've walked down the road of excess, and experienced extreme self indulgence and so on....because they've come from that place, not remain in it...I dunno, just an opinion.

"Have you ever envied a bum? Have you ever seen some down and out character sitting on a curb and wished you were him? I have."

I have for the same reasons you have stated. I have envied a bum -- that is until I get home and open the refrigerator, make myself a sandwich and grab a beer before putting my feet up on a lazy-boy...hours before falling asleep in a bed under a roof.

Talk to ya later Truck'n

[Doreen Peri]

"All I can think of is all the great stuff that was written by drunk, stoned, and totaly fucked up writters. "

More artist mythos crappola...Hemingway said his best work was when he was sober, Bukowski said the same thing, as did Hunter S. Thompson, Morrison's music did suffer the more he indulged, but perhaps Hendrix and the Greatful Dead were exceptions to the rule. Dali didn't need drugs, but perhaps Martha Stewart does. Charlie Parker did his best compositions, like his version of Star Eyes, while battling addiction, not engaging it...and in my opinion, Miles Davis ruined his career with coke...lets not forget Chet Baker who lost his battle with H, and his chops along with two front teeth. Personally I think a lot of times the drunken, drugged out stereotype of the tortured artist is unintentionally played up...Tom Waits is another good example...even when he was a booze hound he said he never worked drunk. Perhaps some artists best work comes because they've walked down the road of excess, and experienced extreme self indulgence and so on....because they've come from that place, not remain in it...I dunno, just an opinion.

he was talking about the people here at studio8, Trevor.

Weren'tchya, Still?

lol

[mousey1]

I don't envy bums. They are asses!

Oh, you mean people on the street, homeless and such. Silly me.

Well, no, I don't ever wanna be a bum. I don't ever wanna be homeless, drinking my meals when ever I can scrounge one up. The lifestyle might seem attractive sometimes....like when I'm up to my ears in bills and have to drag my weary bum off to work at like 6 frickin' 30 in the a.m. But I'm thankful for the job, thankful everything is still functioning well enough for me to work.

Now ask me if I want to win the lottery?

Hell yes. You know why? So I can sit around like a bum and just do all the things I want to do. No distractions. Christ wouldn't that be grand! I'd still wander around in the yard smiling at the flowers, ears cocked to the sounds of birds and the whispery flutterings of butterflies. I might eat a little fancier, me hoose would be a whole lot cleaner.....I would of course treat my maid/cook well....you know, dining together if he/she so wishes and kindly offering to read to him/her as he/she toils....that sort of thing.

But alas I'll probably end up a bag lady! Wandering the streets pushing my shopping cart filled to overflowing with all my bits and pieces, remnants of my quirky life lived. Wandering around the alley smiling at the garbage, ears cocked to the sounds of feral cats and cooing pigeons and the whispery flutterings of rats. Drinking my meals.

One should be careful what they wish for, wish for what they care for and be satisfied with whatever they can get.....without stealing!

Live, love, laugh.......

[stilltrucking]

The poem sounded good. I just like the way it sounds. I should know better than to look for meanings in it. They say there are worse things then death. That is probably true, but I don't want to think about it. There are worse fates than being a wino sitting on the curb in National City California. I got busted in Atoka Oklahoma because a waitress did not like my looks. To make a long story short I got a six month DOT suspension because of it. No reputable company would hire me. I got a job with a fly by night outlaw south Texas outfit. The nastiest fastest truck I ever drove. One of the worse things about it was that the "Jake Brake" would cut in and out. I never new if it was going to work coming down the Grape Vine, or El Cajon. A real death trap. I envied that bum and his safe little life sitting on that curb.

You write to my heart amiga/amoeba, what ever you meant

thanks

[mousey1]

I'm glad you liked it still.

And the beauty is that you can read anything you want into a poem....there's really no right or wrong. Different eyes, different minds, different perceptions. I could've been writing about my visits to Mars, don't make no nevermind, it's all about what you got out of it, if anything.....I'm glad you got something.

Thank you.

[stilltrucking]

Kesey, Kerouac, Burroughs, for everyone you name I came name one too. People been getting stoned since we were lemurs. Hemmingway said he wrote best when he was in love. One man's meat is another's inspiration.

See him wasted on the sidewalk in his jacket and his jeans,
Wearin' yesterday's misfortunes like a smile
He's a poet, he's a picker
He's a prophet, he's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher, and a problem when he's stoned