London explosions coincide with G8 Summit!!

[Trevor]

The London terrorists are making it more and more unlikely that Islam will retain its good name. A pity... a fucking pity.

Well its no more fair to blame Islam on terrorism than it is to blame Christianity on the war in Iraq. I doubt both terrorist attacks or imperialistic war mongering has much to actually do with religion and the pity for me is that people connect the two so easily. And considering that there are probably more Islamics than Christians, yet probably more Christians who are involved in Iraq then there are Islamics involved in terrorism, one has to ask the question, if religion is the factor in all this, who are the real zealots?

The world cannot stand still and not have negative feelings creep in when the name Islam comes into a conversation.

Much like Islams can't help but have negative feelings towards Christians when people like Bush proclaim God has sent him on a mission to rid the world of "evil"....and then go on to blow up women and children....among other injustices.

I don't like it, but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of these active terrorists, the ones that do the actual bombing, are between 18 and 29 years of age... mostly males, mostly sexually repressed by their religious teachers, but we may never know...

Sounds a lot like the profile for the average american soldier....young adult, small town, religious backgrounds....actually, if you look at the people terrorists recruit vs. army recruits, there really isn't much difference. Terrorists usually try to bring impoverished males into the fold...young men who can be swayed by belonging to something and given a purpose. Young men with no career opportunities and no money and little education. Though the higher ups of a terrorist group are usually well educated, the foot soldiers are usually not....much like a president, general or secretary of defense in comparison to those they control. There is a direct relationship between poverty, education level and the people who make up armies of every kind.

[stilltrucking]

You know I am crazy. I think it has nothing to do with the farce in scotland. This is all about London. And it is just a coincidence that the Olympic winner was announced the day before the bombings. But human behavior is over determined, maybe just killing two birds wiht one stone. But those guys love long range planning. What is in store six years down the road?

Yeah lets stay focused here. Too bad the British intelligence services are so much better than ours in the united snakes. What fucking chance do we have if the English can't stop it. ANd the worse part of the nightmare is how presidential it makes george bush look.

[mtmynd]

Trevor, exactly.

[e_dog]

Trevor:

Well its no more fair to blame Islam on terrorism than it is to blame Christianity on the war in Iraq. I doubt both terrorist attacks or imperialistic war mongering has much to actually do with religion and the pity for me is that people connect the two so easily. And considering that there are probably more Islamics than Christians, yet probably more Christians who are involved in Iraq then there are Islamics involved in terrorism, one has to ask the question, if religion is the factor in all this, who are the real zealots?

this sounds like an awfully good case for atheism to me.

the truth is that organized religion and the political actions done in its name is often in conflict with the best, enlightened interpretation of the core tenets of the religious doctrine. Bush is a far cry from 'love thy neighbor as thyself,' one of the teachings of Christ, as is the duty to 'turn the other cheek.' but the moral wisdom of religions never make their appearance on the world stage of politics and war. rather, it is the emotional, irrational power of symbolism and artificial solidarities (us vs. them) that matter politically. and that is precisely why the bourgeoisie, for all their flaws, advanced secularism in government. what we have in Bush, as in Bin Laden, is a reactionary regression from liberal politics into right-wing crusadership. and the people, as always, suffer.

[whimsicaldeb]

We can learn a lot from the Brits ....

This is from a woman who helps moderate at another board, who lives in Reading, UK:

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:55 am

Thanks all for your thoughts. My sister was in Kings Cross station very shortly before the bombs struck, and she couldn't get home last night. Neither could I, although I was far away in Bristol.

Anyway, things are slowly getting back to normal. The Tube is running again, all mainline stations inside of London and outside are open, buses are running almost normally again, road and air travel has resumed as normal.

I've heard from all my friends and family except two friends, but they were some way outside the main attack sites, so I expect they were fine.

Just one note to some posters - we're not relating this in any way to any one group or individual. Nor will we be taking any knee-jerk action as a result of this. When we suffered terrorist attacks from the IRA in Ireland, we strove to achieve peace in the area - we didn't invade Ireland, nor bomb the Irish, nor arrest the Irish Premier, nor seek to undermine the Irish government. Nor did we start to act against all Catholics. No, we carefully got on with our lives, and left the politicians to make the best decisions, not coloured by emotion.

I don't think Bush will get his allies. I think you'll hear a lot of comments over the next few days and weeks, and some anger. However, most of it I predict will be directed against Bush - they'll say Bush dragged us into an illegal war against the wishes of the majority of our population, which has made us less safe as a result.

I'm keeping out of the politics at the moment, as I have no wish to score cheap points at this time.

Ditto for myself as well.

I'm sticking to what’s most important to me, personally. Sad that it happened. Glad that she and her family are okay; that people and things are recovering quickly. Encouraged by her words and actions; her (their) perspective(s); thinking of/keeping tomorrow's peace.

(imo) We could learn much from emulating their responses.
~Deb (carefully getting on with her life)

[Trevor]

Hello all,

Edog:

this sounds like an awfully good case for atheism to me.

What in organized religion isn't a good case for atheism? Shit, sitting through a long ass Catholic ceremony is reason enough for atheism..lol...actually religion baffles the hell out of me. In one hand religious hardliners proclaim no one can understand God, yet they all deem themselves worthy to interpret religious texts how they see fit. And they usually see fit to use it as a vehicle for power.

the truth is that organized religion and the political actions done in its name is often in conflict with the best, enlightened interpretation of the core tenets of the religious doctrine.

Couldn't agree with you more. Fundamentally all religions have the same doctrine if you cut through the historical social and political babble found within the text -- try your best to be a good person. I think its the literal interpretation of religious text that allows people to twist the essence of such text. Sad to say, but some people actually think these things were written by men who spoke with a god. Like a god actually said take your misbehaving wife out into the public square and get the town to pummel her to death with rocks. And even if by some miniscule chance, a god said that, why not say fuck it, god can zap her with lightning if he wants her to die so badly...I mean shit, didn't a god flood the world, eat it up with locust, make rivers turn to blood, burn cities and cause plagues...what's one more person added to the body count...lol

Bush is a far cry from 'love thy neighbor as thyself,' one of the teachings of Christ, as is the duty to 'turn the other cheek.' but the moral wisdom of religions never make their appearance on the world stage of politics and war. rather, it is the emotional, irrational power of symbolism and artificial solidarities (us vs. them) that matter politically.

True, well said.

and that is precisely why the bourgeoisie, for all their flaws, advanced secularism in government. what we have in Bush, as in Bin Laden, is a reactionary regression from liberal politics into right-wing crusadership. and the people, as always, suffer.

I like your use of "crusadership" because the whole Middle East thing does have that feel to it. The "WMD's" or "terrorists" being the new grail, the oil being the real prize... power being the same old goal. I dunno, to simplify my thoughts, I'm baffled, truly baffled at how people can behave....perhaps the day has come when the insane outnumber the sane and you're crazy not to be crazy.

Anyways, great commentary as usual edog.

Whimsicaldeb:

I don't think Bush will get his allies. I think you'll hear a lot of comments over the next few days and weeks, and some anger. However, most of it I predict will be directed against Bush - they'll say Bush dragged us into an illegal war against the wishes of the majority of our population, which has made us less safe as a result.

As sad and horrific as the bombings are, and I'm definitely not trying to be insensitive to the issue, however, I don't think its fair to say Bush dragged Britain into an illegal war....Sure there was pressure but it has been shown already that Blair knew what Bush was up to in advance.... Not like he couldn't stand his ground and tell Bush no....I mean France, Germany, and Canada didn't collapse and whither away after saying no to war. And its not like the world was in favour of the war, so it wouldn't have hurt Britain's popularity, perhaps it would have even improved people's view of the country.

Anyways Deb, I know those weren't your words but I just felt like commenting on what that person said.

Take care all,

Trev

[whimsicaldeb]

As sad and horrific as the bombings are, and I'm definitely not trying to be insensitive to the issue, however, I don't think its fair to say Bush dragged Britain into an illegal war....Sure there was pressure but it has been shown already that Blair knew what Bush was up to in advance.... Not like he couldn't stand his ground and tell Bush no....I mean France, Germany, and Canada didn't collapse and whither away after saying no to war. And its not like the world was in favour of the war, so it wouldn't have hurt Britain's popularity, perhaps it would have even improved people's view of the country.

Anyways Deb, I know those weren't your words but I just felt like commenting on what that person said. -- Trev

No problem Trev, in fact .. the conversation on the other board evolved into just what you're talking about... "What were Blair’s options at the time, why did he say yes instead of no, could he have said something else?" All very good questions. General consensus of this line of questioning is that Blair said yes out of future hopeful economic reasons (oil), more than any loyalty toward Bush, or the US. I’d have to say, I tend to agree with the consensus.

The idea I'm trying to get across is; we can use all of this to learn from, grow from - or else, continue to repeat our mistakes; and that this type of attitude/questioning is (imo) more productive than wringing our hands, crying in our beers, shouting "kill bush!" and "wailing 'oh woe is me!"

[jimboloco]

Kerry was right, it is a police action, not a military one, unfortunately he did not have the balls to oppose the invasion of Iraq.

I wish Canada would step up and denounce the occupation of Iraq or at least say that it is a terrible tactical mistake.

Why are our leaders so stupid?
In a word: OIL!
geopolitical hegemony, the underlying lying ulterior motive. greed.

But oh no, now we can't back down oh no.
Let's get out of Iraq, give them a six month deadline, (no pun intended), get the Iraqi "leaders" to sit at the table with each other, without our interference, so they can get it together, then leave. Leave them everything, military bases, equipment, everything, just leave. Then bring the troops home,. focus on domestic security and international terrorism as a police activity, special ops.

War is obsolete.

Friday, July 8th, 2005
British Antiwar MP George Galloway: "London Has Reaped Blair's Involvement in Iraq"
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... transcript

GEORGE GALLOWAY: Well, London has reaped the involvement of Mr. Blair's involvement in Iraq would be more accurate, because, of course, the vast majority of Londoners, and I have no doubt, the vast majority of the people affected by that despicable act of mass murder yesterday were opponents of Mr. Blair and Bush's war on Iraq. This was an atrocity, as you have just been hearing. But it was also the site of some great heroism and public service from the very public service workers, underground workers, firefighters, and ambulance staffs and health service workers, and policemen and so on, who are praised when they are heroes like they were on 9/11, but when they ask for a decent living or to stay in the public service, rather than be privatized, they are routinely denounced by the same government ministers now heaping praise upon them.

The British are going about their business today, as your last speaker said, with the stoicism for which our country is famous. And we must continue that. But it would be entirely dishonest to pretend that this came out of nowhere, inexcusable, but not inexplicable. Sadly, all too explicable and explained, even before we did it, by the anti-war movement. We said this would not make the world a safer place, it would make the world a more dangerous place. And just like all of the other things we said about the war in Iraq, sadly, we have been proved right again yesterday, as we have been so many times.

[stilltrucking]

I don't know what I would do without NPR. No wonder they want to shut it down. Sound byte the other day, three million or fourteen million surveliance camera's in the UK. You can not walk across london with out having your picture snapped three hundreds times. SO now we can have a discussion about big brother. Polish off our debating skills have deep intellectual discussions about the threat to our freedom. Jimbo I don't have much faith in men anymore. Kerry had to go along to get along. The world has changed, we are like a dinosaur. How long will it take for how it is now to reach our brains. I wish Kerry had not gone along with it. I remember the critizcism of him in that novel Primary Colors. Written by a reporter it was an inside look at the clinton campaign in 92. They thought Kerry was a joke, like he was sleep walking through the primaries playing a game. I think he fought a good fight the last couple weeks of the campaign. But too late. There was a congress woman from georgia called Rankin I think. She was the only person in Congress to vote against World War Two. Where the hell are the women. Where is our Red Emma of this generation, the Sojourner Truths. Yeah we need a president who looks pretty in pink. But Hillary just ain't my cup of tea either. She played along with the game too. She has bloody hands too. Heart sick, heart broke. Walk Away? I don't know, but when Dirty Dick our VP went to iraq he rode around in one of those Rhino's with the V hull bottoms not a flat bottom humvee. Of course they had to borrow one from the private contractors because our troops don't have them. Contractors make five times what a grunt makes and they have better equipment. Why don't we hear more about shit like that. You never talk much about David Hackworth, may he rest in peace. He was the only columnist I remember who used to write about what is really going on in Iraq. .

[stilltrucking]

I cut this part out because I was foaming at the mouth when I wrote it. Yeah lets talk about The G-8 in scotland, lets talk about Iraq, we are all so smart we know exactly why those bombs were set off in London. SOmeone on quoted a Maoist the other day. Can you imagine that? A great man I am sure, famine was endemic in China, but The Red Guards kind of poisoned the Maoist well for me. One day England rejoices for the olympics, the next day they mourn. Coincidences are so interesting. Seems like this new wave of European Islamic violence got kicked started at the Oympics in Germany in 1972. An attack on western culture. But we all have political agenda's and I am sure the terrorists are thrilled that they have instigated so many stimulating intelectual debates about it.

Npr and PBS the only ones speaking truth to power. Where is the New York TImes. That bloody rag, now they tell us how sorry they are that they played into bush's hand. Oh fuck it , I don't know. Yeah ok we walk away, but meanwhile in the next six months lets rip those yellow magnetic support our troopsribbons off of every SUV in sight, stick one on their that says repeal the tax breaks for the wealthiest and buy our troops what they need. Stop doing this on the cheap, cheap lives from small towns in West Virginia and places like that. Meanwhile we can all be so intellectual and talk about Bush and blame him for the London bombings. I hate men jimbo, except for a few of them here who really know what war is. Remember that guy on Litkicks called himself Tete-Offensive. Pass himself off as a veteran I suppose. Could not even spell it. lowest form of scum, I had a buddy at Vanderbilt in Nashville, had a floopy jungle hat that he brought home from Viet Nam, someone in the chemical engineering department stole it. You can bet it was not another veteran who took it. John was a grad student working for masters degree in chem E. you know he was smart. He had these cigarette burns all over his arms. I should not have asked him why but I did. He said it was a game they used to play overthere. Meanwhile London keeps on keeping on.

They say (Rove and the boys) they are building a permanent republican majority in congress. Remember a sond bye a fat old lady in Alabama marching in a anti gay marriage demonstration, Jesus Christ is really pissed off and he is going to kick your ass if you don't start pounding your bible too. And I remember a song Loudon Wainwright? my head hurts my feet stink and I don't like Jesus, yeah redemption is sweet, and he is still my highway hereo, but I would turn my back on it and burn in hell rather than mention his name again. I thought I knew who Christ was, but not after hearing George talk about his redemption, no Nietzsche is right there is no redemption, no redeemer anymore, I got to carry my own cross. The republicans got a lock on Christianity. Free thinkers, we need more free thinkers. Take that tax exemption away from God INc. What do you think when you see some Jewish settler in Gaza screaming "this is biblical land" gives me the willies. Israel don't give a shit about the United States, just another government. These hate spewing preachers that ran all those swift boat adds and talk about buying jews everywhere a one way ticket
Oh yes with god on our side we will have christian nation. oh god forbid, an islamic republic or a christian republic. not much of a choice.
oh god I am sorry, another gutless rant by a man I suppose

[Glorious Amok]

words: gregory corso. idea: not mine.


Budger of history Brake of time You Bomb
Toy of universe Grandest of all snatched sky I cannot hate you
Do I hate the mischievous thunderbolt the jawbone of an ass
The bumpy club of One Million B.C. the mace the flail the axe
Catapult Da Vinci tomahawk Cochise flintlock Kidd dagger Rathbone
Ah and the sad desparate gun of Verlaine Pushkin Dillinger Bogart
And hath not St. Michael a burning sword St. George a lance David a sling
Bomb you are as cruel as man makes you and you're no crueller than cancer
All Man hates you they'd rather die by car-crash lightning drowning
Falling off a roof electric-chair heart-attack old age old age O Bomb
They'd rather die by anything but you Death's finger is free-lance
Not up to man whether you boom or not Death has long since distributed its
categorical blue I sing thee Bomb Death's extravagance Death's jubilee
Gem of Death's supremest blue The flyer will crash his death will differ
with the climbor who'll fall to die by cobra is not to die by bad pork
Some die by swamp some by sea and some by the bushy-haired man in the night
O there are deaths like witches of Arc Scarey deaths like Boris Karloff
No-feeling deaths like birth-death sadless deaths like old pain Bowery
Abandoned deaths like Capital Punishment stately deaths like senators
And unthinkable deaths like Harpo Marx girls on Vogue covers my own
I do not know just how horrible Bombdeath is I can only imagine
Yet no other death I know has so laughable a preview I scope
a city New York City streaming starkeyed subway shelter
Scores and scores A fumble of humanity High heels bend
Hats whelming away Youth forgetting their combs
Ladies not knowing what to do with their shopping bags
Unperturbed gum machines Yet dangerous 3rd rail
Ritz Brothers from the Bronx caught in the A train
The smiling Schenley poster will always smile
Impish death Satyr Bomb Bombdeath
Turtles exploding over Istanbul
The jaguar's flying foot
soon to sink in arctic snow
Penguins plunged against the Sphinx
The top of the Empire state
arrowed in a broccoli field in Sicily
Eiffel shaped like a C in Magnolia Gardens
St. Sophia peeling over Sudan
O athletic Death Sportive Bomb
the temples of ancient times
their grand ruin ceased
Electrons Protons Neutrons
gathering Hersperean hair
walking the dolorous gulf of Arcady
joining marble helmsmen
entering the final ampitheater
with a hymnody feeling of all Troys
heralding cypressean torches
racing plumes and banners
and yet knowing Homer with a step of grace
Lo the visiting team of Present
the home team of Past
Lyre and tube together joined
Hark the hotdog soda olive grape
gala galaxy robed and uniformed
commissary O the happy stands
Ethereal root and cheer and boo
The billioned all-time attendance
The Zeusian pandemonium
Hermes racing Owens
The Spitball of Buddha
Christ striking out
Luther stealing third
Planeterium Death Hosannah Bomb
Gush the final rose O Spring Bomb
Come with thy gown of dynamite green
unmenace Nature's inviolate eye
Before you the wimpled Past
behind you the hallooing Future O Bomb
Bound in the grassy clarion air
like the fox of the tally-ho
thy field the universe thy hedge the geo
Leap Bomb bound Bomb frolic zig and zag
The stars a swarm of bees in thy binging bag
Stick angels on your jubilee feet
wheels of rainlight on your bunky seat
You are due and behold you are due
and the heavens are with you
hosanna incalescent glorious liaison
BOMB O havoc antiphony molten cleft BOOM
Bomb mark infinity a sudden furnace
spread thy multitudinous encompassed Sweep
set forth awful agenda
Carrion stars charnel planets carcass elements
Corpse the universe tee-hee finger-in-the-mouth hop
over its long long dead Nor
From thy nimbled matted spastic eye
exhaust deluges of celestial ghouls
From thy appellational womb
spew birth-gusts of of great worms
Rip open your belly Bomb
from your belly outflock vulturic salutations
Battle forth your spangled hyena finger stumps
along the brink of Paradise
O Bomb O final Pied Piper
both sun and firefly behind your shock waltz
God abandoned mock-nude
beneath His thin false-talc's apocalypse
He cannot hear thy flute's
happy-the-day profanations
He is spilled deaf into the Silencer's warty ear
His Kingdom an eternity of crude wax
Clogged clarions untrumpet Him
Sealed angels unsing Him
A thunderless God A dead God
O Bomb thy BOOM His tomb
That I lean forward on a desk of science
an astrologer dabbling in dragon prose
half-smart about wars bombs especially bombs
That I am unable to hate what is necessary to love
That I can't exist in a world that consents
a child in a park a man dying in an electric-chair
That I am able to laugh at all things
all that I know and do not know thus to conceal my pain
That I say I am a poet and therefore love all man
knowing my words to be the acquainted prophecy of all men
and my unwords no less an acquaintanceship
That I am manifold
a man pursuing the big lies of gold
or a poet roaming in bright ashes
or that which I imagine myself to be
a shark-toothed sleep a man-eater of dreams
I need not then be all-smart about bombs
Happily so for if I felt bombs were caterpillars
I'd doubt not they'd become butterflies
There is a hell for bombs
They're there I see them there
They sit in bits and sing songs
mostly German songs
And two very long American songs
and they wish there were more songs
especially Russian and Chinese songs
and some more very long American songs
Poor little Bomb that'll never be
an Eskimo song I love thee
I want to put a lollipop
in thy furcal mouth
A wig of Goldilocks on thy baldy bean
and have you skip with me Hansel and Gretel
along the Hollywoodian screen
O Bomb in which all lovely things
moral and physical anxiously participate
O fairylike plucked from the
grandest universe tree
O piece of heaven which gives
both mountain and anthill a sun
I am standing before your fantastic lily door
I bring you Midgardian roses Arcadian musk
Reputed cosmetics from the girls of heaven
Welcome me fear not thy opened door
nor thy cold ghost's grey memory
nor the pimps of indefinite weather
their cruel terrestial thaw
Oppenheimer is seated
in the dark pocket of Light
Fermi is dry in Death's Mozambique
Einstein his mythmouth
a barnacled wreath on the moon-squid's head
Let me in Bomb rise from that pregnant-rat corner
nor fear the raised-broom nations of the world
O Bomb I love you
I want to kiss your clank eat your boom
You are a paean an acme of scream
a lyric hat of Mister Thunder
O resound thy tanky knees
BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM
BOOM ye skies and BOOM ye suns
BOOM BOOM ye moons ye stars BOOM
nights ye BOOM ye days ye BOOM
BOOM BOOM ye winds ye clouds ye rains
go BANG ye lakes ye oceans BING
Barracuda BOOM and cougar BOOM
Ubangi BOOM orangutang
BING BANG BONG BOOM bee bear baboon
ye BANG ye BONG ye BING
the tail the fin the wing
Yes Yes into our midst a bomb will fall
Flowers will leap in joy their roots aching
Fields will kneel proud beneath the halleluyahs of the wind
Pinkbombs will blossom Elkbombs will perk their ears
Ah many a bomb that day will awe the bird a gentle look
Yet not enough to say a bomb will fall
or even contend celestial fire goes out
Know that the earth will madonna the Bomb
that in the hearts of men to come more bombs will be born
magisterial bombs wrapped in ermine all beautiful
and they'll sit plunk on earth's grumpy empires
fierce with moustaches of gold

[Arcadia]

dizzy words!

[gypsyjoker]

I doubt both terrorist attacks or imperialistic war mongering has much to actually do with religion and the pity for me is that people connect the two so easily.

than it is to blame Christianity on the war in Iraq.

Oh I find it very easy, to blame christians, at least the christians I know up close and personal. I don't think my family will ever be all together again.

Got dam that cottonmouthsoldier, all I did was post one little link to karmic dice, created lots of problems in myfamily. I have a couple of relativities that are always just sort of mentioning the fact that they are christians. If I make any critical remarks about our dear leader, it just always seems to wind up as an attack on Christianity, one hurt me when he forgave me for being so thoughtless, he even told me “I know you have some respect for Jesus Christ. Hey take the easy way out, blame the Jews, no more Jewish writers, that mighty smighty god of mary’s, dam don’t ya wish yu could be a catholic.

yeah a good case for atheism, yeah like a good fuking case ain't ben made upto now.

It gives me the squirms to here Churchill quoted from world war two, how many of his nasty little imperialistic schmeemes are we still dealing with today. Iraq for example. So we blew it, God save The Queen, got dam red necked white trash southern anglophile that I am. Scotland an important story. waiting for white bird to sing a summer camp for sheppards.