Plan to Show Confederate Flag Draws Heat
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - An organizer of a planned memorial to honor Confederate soldiers who died at an Illinois prison camp says the rebel flag will be displayed at the memorial's dedication, despite opposition.
"We consider this an honorable flag. This is a soldier's flag," said Ron Casteel, national chief of staff for the Sons of Confederate Veterans, one of the memorial's planners. "There will be no substitute."
Camp Butler, just east of Springfield, was a training facility for Union troops during the Civil War and a prison camp for more than 3,500 captured Confederates. More than 800 of the prisoners died and were buried there, and the site is now a national cemetery.
Local and cemetery officials already have approved the plans for the Confederate memorial there. Organizers have raised about $6,000 for the project, which will include a 7 1/2 foot obelisk, and hope to dedicate the memorial sometime next year.
The local NAACP chapter said the flag "represents oppression and murder." The Anti-Defamation League, which fights anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination, proposed that organizers fly flags of individual Southern states during the dedication, saying many Americans consider the Confederate flag to be "a symbol of hatred and oppression."
Sens. Dick Durbin and Barack Obama also have asked federal officials to bar display of the Confederate flag during the ceremony.
Confederate flags are not allowed to be flown in national cemeteries. But Camp Butler officials say the flag can be carried in and out when monuments are dedicated.
I've decided to write a letter of protest to the place where to event is/was to take place. Here's what it looks like.
To Whom It May Concern
Allow me to introduce myself my name is and I am writing this letter of protest to the recent display of the Confederate flag that was used at the honoring of those who died for the Southern cause during the American Civil War. This flag does not bring any honor what so ever. It can only bring shame and racial hatred. If this where instead World War II German dead. Would you have flown the Nazi flag in honor of them? No you wouldnÂ’t have undertaken it. So why did the Confederate flag which also has the same feelings against it be flown in honor? I must ask that you apologize to the community at large for under taking this shameful event. That and in future reconsider never putting on display this flag ever again. I thank you for taking the time to read my letter.
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Don't Show These Stars And Stripes!!!!
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Dave The Dov
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Don't Show These Stars And Stripes!!!!
Last edited by Dave The Dov on March 15th, 2009, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
I saw a mean looking guy with a confederate flag shirt and the caption, "it's a southern thing":
obviously the flag per se is an abstract design, bars and stars.
it is the connotations as you say, the history of what was a genocidal regime.
some would also say the same of the current flag.
got to keep the pressure on. i like the letter.
obviously the flag per se is an abstract design, bars and stars.
it is the connotations as you say, the history of what was a genocidal regime.
some would also say the same of the current flag.
got to keep the pressure on. i like the letter.
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
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hester_prynne
Does the confederate flag make you boil over with hatred?
Yikes! If so, why?
I'm not really devoted to any flags that deeply. I mean, they are alright but anymore flags just seem to make old issues come to life again, issues that are currently resolved hopefully, if by nothing else than time and the lessons of history.
Personally, I think surrender flags are best in cemetaries and for memorials of the sort you are having.
The others seem moot to me there.
Fact is, i'd like to see new flags designed more often, to suggest new beginnings, lessons learned etc. I get tired of all the old rah rah rah's defining us.
Let it go man! It's history now, that's all.
H
Yikes! If so, why?
I'm not really devoted to any flags that deeply. I mean, they are alright but anymore flags just seem to make old issues come to life again, issues that are currently resolved hopefully, if by nothing else than time and the lessons of history.
Personally, I think surrender flags are best in cemetaries and for memorials of the sort you are having.
The others seem moot to me there.
Fact is, i'd like to see new flags designed more often, to suggest new beginnings, lessons learned etc. I get tired of all the old rah rah rah's defining us.
Let it go man! It's history now, that's all.
H
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Dave The Dov
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jb - Hopefully the South will resolve that "issue" for good. That and this country as well.
nb - Yes I have read that book plus I've looked into the Civil War for many years as well. True slavery did exist well before the Civil War. But when the Abolitionist movement started up during the mid ninetheenth century. It marked the start of the end to slavery. But after the end of the Civil War. Those in the South did not want the slaves who became free and gain a good life. They saw it as a threat to their well being. So the KKK was formed and they terrorizied those freed slaves in the South. By using the Confederate flag to do so. Now a days when ever I see that flag I wish the person or people who own one would think as to what it means. Yes I do object to the American flag but only if it's used the wrong way. Such as those who think it belongs only to them and no one else. Flags can be an answer but with many meanings.
hp - Yes I belive in redesigning old flags. Mississippi has the Confederate flag on it's state flag. Georgia at one time did have it as well. But in 2003 it was changed and now no longer has it anymore. Now if Mississippi could follow Georgia's lead and change it as well. No the Confederate does not make me boil over with hatred. It just makes me concerned that there are people out there who do or do not known the meaning of that flag in this day and age.
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Moroccan Forum
nb - Yes I have read that book plus I've looked into the Civil War for many years as well. True slavery did exist well before the Civil War. But when the Abolitionist movement started up during the mid ninetheenth century. It marked the start of the end to slavery. But after the end of the Civil War. Those in the South did not want the slaves who became free and gain a good life. They saw it as a threat to their well being. So the KKK was formed and they terrorizied those freed slaves in the South. By using the Confederate flag to do so. Now a days when ever I see that flag I wish the person or people who own one would think as to what it means. Yes I do object to the American flag but only if it's used the wrong way. Such as those who think it belongs only to them and no one else. Flags can be an answer but with many meanings.
hp - Yes I belive in redesigning old flags. Mississippi has the Confederate flag on it's state flag. Georgia at one time did have it as well. But in 2003 it was changed and now no longer has it anymore. Now if Mississippi could follow Georgia's lead and change it as well. No the Confederate does not make me boil over with hatred. It just makes me concerned that there are people out there who do or do not known the meaning of that flag in this day and age.
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Moroccan Forum
Last edited by Dave The Dov on March 15th, 2009, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hester_prynne
Yes. I admit it. I find the Confederate flag offensive. It's true that the Civil War started as a Union military action to prevent the South's secession, and that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in Southern states, but this declaration energized the abolitionist movement and it helped gain popular support worldwide for the Union and the cause of abolitionism in general, as Lincoln hoped (and likely calculated), so much so that Lincoln staked his political career (and life) in the 1864 election on a proposed 13th Amendment which would free all slaves. He won re-election, and Congress sent the Amendment to the states before the war concluded, where it was ratified shortly thereafter.
Abolition of slavery became a major driving cause for the Union side as the war progressed, while the South bitterly opposed it to the end. The South was on the wrong side of this basic human-rights issue, and as such, I find its flag offensive. I'm sorry. I'm usually more immune to these type of symbols than other people around me, but this one gets to me.... perhaps more than it should. So sue me, I suppose.
Abolition of slavery became a major driving cause for the Union side as the war progressed, while the South bitterly opposed it to the end. The South was on the wrong side of this basic human-rights issue, and as such, I find its flag offensive. I'm sorry. I'm usually more immune to these type of symbols than other people around me, but this one gets to me.... perhaps more than it should. So sue me, I suppose.
Last edited by mnaz on October 6th, 2005, 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's what the symbol stood for, rather than the symbol itself. I guess it depends on context. For example, I can watch a brain-dead and hilarious episode of "Dukes of Hazzard" and not take any serious offense at the General Lee's painted Confederate flag....
I suppose it's when people wave that flag as they champion everything it stood for. I know. It probably shouldn't bother me so much, but it does at times.
I suppose it's when people wave that flag as they champion everything it stood for. I know. It probably shouldn't bother me so much, but it does at times.
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Dave The Dov
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Again heres a situation were people didn't understand the meaning of that particular flag. Hence the "Dukes Of Hazzard". They certainly wouldn't have done that with the Nazi flag. So why was it done with the Confederate flag????
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Mercedes Benz A Class
Last edited by Dave The Dov on March 19th, 2009, 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Good question, Dave.... not sure I have the answer, other than it might be a matter of degree. And context.
I look at what the two flags represented, and it seems to me that the Nazi Party was a much more focused murderous movement than was the Southern United States as a whole, given their respective historic periods.
If someone is displaying the Confederate flag in the spirit of "honoring their roots", and not as symbolic reinforcement of their ongoing, overt racist ways, then I suppose I can tolerate it, up to a point. In the "Dukes" series, Bo and Luke are not racist in their actions. They are good-natured and fair-minded. Now one might argue that this portrayal is unrealistic, but that would be a whole other discussion. Many Southerners are partial to the symbol and not wholly devoted to everything it may have stood for. I don't think you can say the same about Nazis and their flag.
It's not that great of an argument, granted, but it is something to consider.
I look at what the two flags represented, and it seems to me that the Nazi Party was a much more focused murderous movement than was the Southern United States as a whole, given their respective historic periods.
If someone is displaying the Confederate flag in the spirit of "honoring their roots", and not as symbolic reinforcement of their ongoing, overt racist ways, then I suppose I can tolerate it, up to a point. In the "Dukes" series, Bo and Luke are not racist in their actions. They are good-natured and fair-minded. Now one might argue that this portrayal is unrealistic, but that would be a whole other discussion. Many Southerners are partial to the symbol and not wholly devoted to everything it may have stood for. I don't think you can say the same about Nazis and their flag.
It's not that great of an argument, granted, but it is something to consider.
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Dave The Dov
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Which would get you in trouble more???? Waving a Nazi flag in an area which is mainly Jewish or waving a Confederate flag in an area that is mainly African American???? Far as I'm concerned both flags have equal circumstanes for bringing out racist hatred.
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Last edited by Dave The Dov on March 19th, 2009, 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stilltrucking
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if you let symbols yank you around by the ying yang you got problems dave. get over it. Igot no problem with the Nazi Flag, the Confederate flag, any flag, my favorite flag these days in the maple leaf.
Just two good old boys, never meanin' no harm....
Beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born.
Straightenin' the curves, flattenin' the hills....
Someday the mountain might get 'em but the law never will.
Makin' their way, the only way they know how...
That's just a little bit more than the law will allow.
Just two good ol' boys, wouldn't change if they could,
Fightin' the system like two modern-day Robin Hoods...
More americans killed in the civil war than all our wars put together. There was not one confederate flag, each state had its own flag. So there were realy eleven confederate flags. Here are four of them.
Probably the one you are complaining about owes its popularity to the movie The Birth of A Nation. One of Woodrow Wilson's all time favorites. Yep the man who got wanted to make the world safe for democracy was not talking about making it safe for black Americans.
I do not understand why Germany bans the swastika, seems like they are trying to sweep the problem under the rug.
I suppose it is illegal in Germany to sell Navajo pottery
Just two good old boys, never meanin' no harm....
Beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born.
Straightenin' the curves, flattenin' the hills....
Someday the mountain might get 'em but the law never will.
Makin' their way, the only way they know how...
That's just a little bit more than the law will allow.
Just two good ol' boys, wouldn't change if they could,
Fightin' the system like two modern-day Robin Hoods...
More americans killed in the civil war than all our wars put together. There was not one confederate flag, each state had its own flag. So there were realy eleven confederate flags. Here are four of them.
Probably the one you are complaining about owes its popularity to the movie The Birth of A Nation. One of Woodrow Wilson's all time favorites. Yep the man who got wanted to make the world safe for democracy was not talking about making it safe for black Americans.
I do not understand why Germany bans the swastika, seems like they are trying to sweep the problem under the rug.
I suppose it is illegal in Germany to sell Navajo pottery
How about waving an American flag in an Al Quaida camp?
Flags are, and have been, used for collective identity, except for the 'flag of surrender'... something about a plain white cloth just doesn't provoke too much collective identity.
The Hell's Angels use their 'colors' on vests or jackets... like most motorcycle gangs, (or should I use the word 'brotherhoods'?). These 'colors' are flags, so to speak... the collective indentity of one group or groups of people maintaining a mutual identity.
It's a difficult thing to imagine banning symbols because they remind people of something that happened in the past. If a symbol incites someone's anger to commit violence, I think that person carried that anger for a long time, even before the flag was waved. Denying someone a flag will not inhibit their anger, but may postpone the inevitable... but is that good?
Flags and symbols are universal - even the Corporate world has their symbols. Look at Coca Cola, Nike, Apple or the symbol of Christianity, even the symbols used for our own various military forces... even I have made a symbol for "Longhorn Buddhism"!
Personally, I think honoring flags or being replused by them is rather stupid... as symbols may be an indentity, they are followed by many different opinions as to what the symbol/flag mean to each of them/us. It is our collective identity in a wish-form rather than a reality.
[However I do like the flag with the planet Earth on it and would like to see a flag with an enzo on it. Hmmm....]
Flags are, and have been, used for collective identity, except for the 'flag of surrender'... something about a plain white cloth just doesn't provoke too much collective identity.
The Hell's Angels use their 'colors' on vests or jackets... like most motorcycle gangs, (or should I use the word 'brotherhoods'?). These 'colors' are flags, so to speak... the collective indentity of one group or groups of people maintaining a mutual identity.
It's a difficult thing to imagine banning symbols because they remind people of something that happened in the past. If a symbol incites someone's anger to commit violence, I think that person carried that anger for a long time, even before the flag was waved. Denying someone a flag will not inhibit their anger, but may postpone the inevitable... but is that good?
Flags and symbols are universal - even the Corporate world has their symbols. Look at Coca Cola, Nike, Apple or the symbol of Christianity, even the symbols used for our own various military forces... even I have made a symbol for "Longhorn Buddhism"!
Personally, I think honoring flags or being replused by them is rather stupid... as symbols may be an indentity, they are followed by many different opinions as to what the symbol/flag mean to each of them/us. It is our collective identity in a wish-form rather than a reality.
[However I do like the flag with the planet Earth on it and would like to see a flag with an enzo on it. Hmmm....]
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Dave The Dov
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