What i said in response to your question is what i'd say to a student of mine.
Not to a whole class, but to a student in a one-to-one conversation.
If you were a student of mine, i'd also say a whole lot more. It's very simple, K&D, it depends on the student and the circumstance.
I do not allow myself to be put in danger by self-incrimination. Would you?
If so, you're going to find yourself in a situation very soon.
As for open discussion of necessary issues, it happens during class. Not often enough, for various reasons, but whenever there's a chance, there's a chance for expression. i also work a lot with dialogue journals, so that in the privacy of one to one correspondence, students and i can discuss relevant issues.
Off Duty Professional Etiquette.
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Zlatko Waterman
- Posts: 1631
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- Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
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I like the way the fictional Don Juan says it to Carlos in "A Separate Reality":
"Don't make yourself available."
Here, if I understand Castaneda's intent, the "self" of "yourself" is what Robert Bly ( a wonderful poet who should have steered clear of "guru-ism") calls "the self in solitude." The part of you that you must not allow to be drained away or violated, even by your closest intimates.
Police officers I have known ( and I used to teach a class in writing crime-scene reports that was nearly all cops) practice a similar professional decorum: the uniform makes the arrest, not the man or the woman. But when they relax at a bar or club, all that gets temporarily packed away. Until some drunk pulls a gun or begins to brutalize another customer. Even then, the secret, un-uniformed cop may defer.
People sometimes expect me to be able to spell every word in an English dictionary on demand. I admit I used to spell pretty well, until I read thirty years of hastily typed freshman papers. But no professional can function flawlessly all the time.
Look at Scooter Libby, a master of mendacity and spin.
But "professionals", for some reason, usually carry more weight when they utter an opinion or exhibit their proclivities, as well as incurring harsher criticism. "He's just an old drunk who staggered in here" is the reaction to a haggard man in a stained raincoat who is sloshing spirits at the end of the bar.
But the man with the unknotted tie at the other end of the bar who's losing his balance while swilling Scotch gets: "Why, isn't that Doctor Stalwart, M.D.? I sure wouldn't want him to operate on my pancreas in that condition!!"
Teachers are routinely under even greater scrutiny. Someone said that a teacher, to be effective, has to be a bit of a lover, though a discreet, hands-off type of lover, and I agree. If you care about your subject, fine-- that's indispensible. But a teacher has to care whether his students are "getting it" also.
My wife, a Math teacher, and one of the best who ever lived, often shares her discomfort over how resistant her students seem to the simple absorption of basic Math principles, even though those students may be trying to learn ( something many of my students didn't manage). She's constantly finding ways to make the mysteries of Math more accessible to them.
God-- if I had only had her as a teacher, I might not have gotten that "D" in Physics.
But the private life of a teacher ( in the early part of the twentieth century, female teachers in some US states could not even be married-- incredible as this sounds, my wife's mother, an elementary school teacher, had to quit her job in 1925 because she got married) generally shouldn't be advertised, K and D, probably for the same reason you don't write "Kathleen Donovan" ( I'm just making this name up-- I know that probably isn't your name) under your picture on StudioEight.
I'm all for individual rights; the Constitution and its Bill of Rights, if it weren't so recklessly ignored by some politicians and "leaders", is the best thing we have, and we must cling to it and extol it.
But that vague and shadowy thing-- reputation-- can make or break a professional.
Thomas H. Ginsburg, nominated by Ronald Reagan as a Supreme Court Justice, admitted that he had smoked marijuana in the 60's and 70's, and was disqualified. The decision was not made on the basis of his judicial credentials, but on the basis of "proscribed" extra-professional activity.
The current Bush nominee, Harriet Miers, withdrew yesterday for what might be deemed "professional" reasons. But both Ginsburg and Miers didn't make it, Ginsburg for smoking marijuana.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/constitut ... r17_05.htm
As my younger friends sometimes say, "Go figure."
A teacher assumes a good deal of responsibility. When I began to work for the State of California in 1972, I had to go first to the Sheriff's station , be fingerprinted, and sign a loyalty oath. That oath certified that I would not, "attempt or advocate the overthrow of the government of the United States by force or violence . . ." among other things. No signing of the oath, no job. It was that simple.
A famous case involving writer Jessica Mitford, one of my favorite truth-tellers ( along with I.F. Stone), who briefly held a teaching position at San Jose State University in California, involved the signing of a loyalty oath.
(link to Mitford page)
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/ar ... ;read=6052
But Jessica Mitford wasn't, unlike me, trying to support a young family, buy a necessary car, and pay her rent and food.
Of course I didn't refuse to sign the loyalty oath and expect them to hire me anyway. They fired an eminence like Jessica Mitford, didn't they? Even when her classes were overflowing with eager students.
Sometimes you just have to compromise a little.
Zlatko
"Don't make yourself available."
Here, if I understand Castaneda's intent, the "self" of "yourself" is what Robert Bly ( a wonderful poet who should have steered clear of "guru-ism") calls "the self in solitude." The part of you that you must not allow to be drained away or violated, even by your closest intimates.
Police officers I have known ( and I used to teach a class in writing crime-scene reports that was nearly all cops) practice a similar professional decorum: the uniform makes the arrest, not the man or the woman. But when they relax at a bar or club, all that gets temporarily packed away. Until some drunk pulls a gun or begins to brutalize another customer. Even then, the secret, un-uniformed cop may defer.
People sometimes expect me to be able to spell every word in an English dictionary on demand. I admit I used to spell pretty well, until I read thirty years of hastily typed freshman papers. But no professional can function flawlessly all the time.
Look at Scooter Libby, a master of mendacity and spin.
But "professionals", for some reason, usually carry more weight when they utter an opinion or exhibit their proclivities, as well as incurring harsher criticism. "He's just an old drunk who staggered in here" is the reaction to a haggard man in a stained raincoat who is sloshing spirits at the end of the bar.
But the man with the unknotted tie at the other end of the bar who's losing his balance while swilling Scotch gets: "Why, isn't that Doctor Stalwart, M.D.? I sure wouldn't want him to operate on my pancreas in that condition!!"
Teachers are routinely under even greater scrutiny. Someone said that a teacher, to be effective, has to be a bit of a lover, though a discreet, hands-off type of lover, and I agree. If you care about your subject, fine-- that's indispensible. But a teacher has to care whether his students are "getting it" also.
My wife, a Math teacher, and one of the best who ever lived, often shares her discomfort over how resistant her students seem to the simple absorption of basic Math principles, even though those students may be trying to learn ( something many of my students didn't manage). She's constantly finding ways to make the mysteries of Math more accessible to them.
God-- if I had only had her as a teacher, I might not have gotten that "D" in Physics.
But the private life of a teacher ( in the early part of the twentieth century, female teachers in some US states could not even be married-- incredible as this sounds, my wife's mother, an elementary school teacher, had to quit her job in 1925 because she got married) generally shouldn't be advertised, K and D, probably for the same reason you don't write "Kathleen Donovan" ( I'm just making this name up-- I know that probably isn't your name) under your picture on StudioEight.
I'm all for individual rights; the Constitution and its Bill of Rights, if it weren't so recklessly ignored by some politicians and "leaders", is the best thing we have, and we must cling to it and extol it.
But that vague and shadowy thing-- reputation-- can make or break a professional.
Thomas H. Ginsburg, nominated by Ronald Reagan as a Supreme Court Justice, admitted that he had smoked marijuana in the 60's and 70's, and was disqualified. The decision was not made on the basis of his judicial credentials, but on the basis of "proscribed" extra-professional activity.
The current Bush nominee, Harriet Miers, withdrew yesterday for what might be deemed "professional" reasons. But both Ginsburg and Miers didn't make it, Ginsburg for smoking marijuana.
http://www.theocracywatch.org/constitut ... r17_05.htm
As my younger friends sometimes say, "Go figure."
A teacher assumes a good deal of responsibility. When I began to work for the State of California in 1972, I had to go first to the Sheriff's station , be fingerprinted, and sign a loyalty oath. That oath certified that I would not, "attempt or advocate the overthrow of the government of the United States by force or violence . . ." among other things. No signing of the oath, no job. It was that simple.
A famous case involving writer Jessica Mitford, one of my favorite truth-tellers ( along with I.F. Stone), who briefly held a teaching position at San Jose State University in California, involved the signing of a loyalty oath.
(link to Mitford page)
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/ar ... ;read=6052
But Jessica Mitford wasn't, unlike me, trying to support a young family, buy a necessary car, and pay her rent and food.
Of course I didn't refuse to sign the loyalty oath and expect them to hire me anyway. They fired an eminence like Jessica Mitford, didn't they? Even when her classes were overflowing with eager students.
Sometimes you just have to compromise a little.
Zlatko
Last edited by Zlatko Waterman on October 28th, 2005, 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
yeah, i can see that.
i mean you've taught college students, were not very into compromising, i tend to want to be an all or nothing person, esp if it comes to at least theory.
my mom's name is kathleen, its an awesome name, if i ever have kids, something makes me doubt i will, i think i might name a girl kathleen.
i mean you've taught college students, were not very into compromising, i tend to want to be an all or nothing person, esp if it comes to at least theory.
my mom's name is kathleen, its an awesome name, if i ever have kids, something makes me doubt i will, i think i might name a girl kathleen.
Blah!
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
Z --
Some really good points here that I can agree with:
Thank you.
Can you imagine a world where someone who can't tell Victoria Holt from Daniel Defoe is an English teacher? That's the situation. In my own mind, I have no business doing this, but I am. Someone should still be holding my hand. No one is holding my hand. I'm just OUT there. The only thing preventing disaster is my own sense of honesty. Without that, I'd be so screwed, and so would the people that trusted me, for sure.
Be skeptical. Question authority.
"God-- if I had only had her as a teacher, I might not have gotten that "D" in Physics."
How do you inspire a love of abstract truth or a love of abstract reason? I wish I knew that trick!
BTW, I probably don't need to say this again, but you did a GOOD job as an English teacher. I couldn't shake what you taught me, even if I'd wanted to, and I never wanted to. How many people can say that about their influence in life?
Some really good points here that I can agree with:
The part of you that you must not allow to be drained away or violated, even by your closest intimates.
Thank you.
If your job is MORE than a job, this will happen. Many people have a vocation instead.the secret, un-uniformed cop may defer.
reading too much bad English can ruin your life.I admit I used to spell pretty well, until I read thirty years of hastily typed freshman papers.
Damn, WHY??? It's scary. I had to do a count today for a corporate score. I've bluffed my way through 16 health applications, 12 of which became policies. I used to be one of those contempt-inspiring voices on the other end of the customer service line -- one of the people you think are earning 9$ an hour to tell you bullshit. Well, I WASN'T earning $9 an hour, but I STILL feel like a little girl masquerading in her mother's wedding gown when I write a policy, and the truth is, I've sold 12 health plans in my LIFE, but people think I'm an AUTHORITY. What's REALLY scary is that in this world, I AM. Cripes.But "professionals", for some reason, usually carry more weight when they utter an opinion or exhibit their proclivities, as well as incurring harsher criticism.
Can you imagine a world where someone who can't tell Victoria Holt from Daniel Defoe is an English teacher? That's the situation. In my own mind, I have no business doing this, but I am. Someone should still be holding my hand. No one is holding my hand. I'm just OUT there. The only thing preventing disaster is my own sense of honesty. Without that, I'd be so screwed, and so would the people that trusted me, for sure.
Be skeptical. Question authority.
"God-- if I had only had her as a teacher, I might not have gotten that "D" in Physics."
How do you inspire a love of abstract truth or a love of abstract reason? I wish I knew that trick!
This is true. So what's to be said about a teacher's moral life? It isn't a fair question. Outside of obeying the law, a teacher should have no OUTSIDE moral obligations. A teacher TEACHES. That's the job description. Anything else, IMO, is an unfair imposition.in the early part of the twentieth century, female teachers in some US states could not even be married
Oh, good grief. But didn't you mention way earlier that you had a few subversive friends in college? Didn't you say you were "questioned" by the CIA or some group? Please excuse me. I know I am being inaccurate, but my question is REALLY -- is this something ALL community college teachers had to do -- or just you? In either case, it's stupid.When I began to work for the State of California in 1972, I had to go first to the Sheriff's station , be fingerprinted, and sign a loyalty oath. That oath certified that I would not, "attempt or advocate the overthrow of the government of the United States by force or violence . . ." among other things. No signing of the oath, no job. It was that simple.
BTW, I probably don't need to say this again, but you did a GOOD job as an English teacher. I couldn't shake what you taught me, even if I'd wanted to, and I never wanted to. How many people can say that about their influence in life?
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Lightning Rod
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here is another example of the nonsense that goes on in the area of professional/personal lives.
My sister worked for Home Depot. She was a lighting specialist. She has a college degree in theater and she knows about lighting. She is a dream employee. She is always on time and she takes her job seriously and she makes every customer feel special.
But they gave her a urine test. She failed it because she had some cold medicine in her system. OK, maybe a little marijuana too. Point is, she got fired.
Urine tests are a perfect example of what this thread is about. What difference does it make to how you perform your job if you smoked pot two weeks ago on a Saturday night? None. Zit. Zilch. But you can be fired for the residue of your sins.
A clerk in the lighting department at Home Depot is hardly a position of critical importance or national security.
This goes straight to the heart of my concepts of Body Sovereignty
My sister worked for Home Depot. She was a lighting specialist. She has a college degree in theater and she knows about lighting. She is a dream employee. She is always on time and she takes her job seriously and she makes every customer feel special.
But they gave her a urine test. She failed it because she had some cold medicine in her system. OK, maybe a little marijuana too. Point is, she got fired.
Urine tests are a perfect example of what this thread is about. What difference does it make to how you perform your job if you smoked pot two weeks ago on a Saturday night? None. Zit. Zilch. But you can be fired for the residue of your sins.
A clerk in the lighting department at Home Depot is hardly a position of critical importance or national security.
This goes straight to the heart of my concepts of Body Sovereignty
Ratbag, you have opened up quite a can of opinions. I've enjoyed reading this thread and in so doing I have concluded that anyone truly concerned about their own choice of professionalism should disengage from it... even at the risk of their job. It's not worth it to separate yourself from your being.
There is a subtle, but yet recognizable, difference between one who deems themselves to be a "professional" and one who considers themselves to be knowledgeable in what they love doing (an "amat-eur").
There is a subtle, but yet recognizable, difference between one who deems themselves to be a "professional" and one who considers themselves to be knowledgeable in what they love doing (an "amat-eur").
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Zlatko Waterman
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Lightning Rod
- Posts: 5211
- Joined: August 15th, 2004, 6:57 pm
- Location: between my ears
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hester_prynne
Whoa, interesting thread alright.
I've never really thought that what people do off time was any of my business and vice versa, so I've always stayed away from employers that make an issue of that. It's a signal to me that they need to have too much control over their employees and it's just too high a price to pay for my spirit. I'm not at my best when I feel like I have to watch my every move for fear I may get fired or misjudged. That's no way to live. It promotes way too much distrust and self doubts, not to mention resentment.
I have no respect for companies that require urine tests either. A 90 day probationary period can tell you more about a person than a fucking urine test can. Employers miss out by not giving people a chance, by ruling them out because they have a little thc in their system. I can't respect that, not when I believe legal alcohol use to be total hypocrisy.
I don't respect myself if I'm not being myself, doing what I want to do on my own free time. I don't feel motivated, or as creative if I'm being controlled by some fear of what people might think, or someone who thinks success is based largely on how something looks, or how someone can pretend to fit in. Why would I subject myself to that?
I think a sense of humor opens alot of doors. I mean, bottom line, we all know it's funny.
H
I've never really thought that what people do off time was any of my business and vice versa, so I've always stayed away from employers that make an issue of that. It's a signal to me that they need to have too much control over their employees and it's just too high a price to pay for my spirit. I'm not at my best when I feel like I have to watch my every move for fear I may get fired or misjudged. That's no way to live. It promotes way too much distrust and self doubts, not to mention resentment.
I have no respect for companies that require urine tests either. A 90 day probationary period can tell you more about a person than a fucking urine test can. Employers miss out by not giving people a chance, by ruling them out because they have a little thc in their system. I can't respect that, not when I believe legal alcohol use to be total hypocrisy.
I don't respect myself if I'm not being myself, doing what I want to do on my own free time. I don't feel motivated, or as creative if I'm being controlled by some fear of what people might think, or someone who thinks success is based largely on how something looks, or how someone can pretend to fit in. Why would I subject myself to that?
I think a sense of humor opens alot of doors. I mean, bottom line, we all know it's funny.
H
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