How do I tell if I'm a liberal or a conservative?

[Lightning Rod]

How do I know if I'm a conservative or a liberal?

Ok, I could look at a map and see if I live in a red or a blue state, but somehow I don't think that would tell me what I want to know.

When I was in high school I was chairman of the Taylor County Young Republicans. I campaigned for Barry Goldwater. Does that make me a conservative?

Wait, I was also a member of the SDS and campaigned for George McGovern. Does that make me a liberal or just dis-lexic?

I think that the government should keep its nose out of our business. That's a conservative notion, right? But I also think that what goes on behind your bedroom door should be private even if it involves Astroglide and anal penetration. Does this make me a liberal?

I believe that every person should take responsibility for his own life. That's conservative? But I also think that it is the responsibility of the community to take care of those that can't take care of themselves. Is that liberal?

If I watch Fox News am I a conservative? If I listen to NPR am I a liberal? Ooops, I must be both.

Nope, I'm neither.

How about you, and why?

[Doreen Peri]

Your a lysdexic liberal Liberterian with a conservative past.

Don't be ashamed. It's OK.

Everybody has to be something.

[mnaz]

Yeah, what doreen said. I think I'm that....

But does it really matter anymore? Seems like we have three primary political power groups.... Corporatist-Right (Repubs), Corporatist-Center (Dems), and Religious Zealots (the wild card).

Repubs have been successful pinning the dreaded 'liberal' tag on anyone who believes that gov't should actually raise somewhere close to enough tax revenue to pay for its programs as opposed to bottomless hole deficit spending. And Repubs have been successful stringing the Zealots along, as well.

There. There's my daily cynic's affirmation.

[mtmynd]

LR - allow to to respond with something I wrote over 4 years ago -


<center>My Liberalism</center>

My liberalism frees me from the preponderancy of conservative cowardness...those that deem what is right for me, those that call halt to my doings, those that fear change and tomorrows that they cannot grasp, those that follow the moral codes engraved into their psyches by foolish archetypes that profess to know what my own spirit should demonstrate to their immature attitudes.

My liberalism allows every man/woman to face their own challenges in life, allows each person to speak the truths that they believe, allows anyone’s religion a ground to pray on, allows mankind to coexist and respect others beliefs, philosophies, ideas to root, even on the sidewalk cracks, to bloom and draw forth the undiscriminating bee to its nectars.

My liberalism gives all the opportunity to express their own god given being, gives the diversity of life its due respect, gives halt to the reckless behavior of conservative greed to fill their own wallets, leaving others penniless and at their mercy.

My liberalism shows itself naked to the world, with all its imperfections, its pimples and boils, its warts and moles, to show others that perfection is not what we wish it to be, but perfection lies in the acceptance of this stage of life to perform its script, without interference from kings or queens, without interference from monarchs or oligarches, without interference from the self professed one-to-one-with-god psuedo-saints.

My liberalism is something which is as cultivated as the redwood forest, as confined as the flooded river that overflows its banks, as beautiful as the universe on a new moon night, as loving as the innocence of a child, and as spiritual as the cactus that grows on the south side of a desert mountain.

The big daddy that shakes his finger is my own ego reprimanding myself for not obeying the dictates of past efforts... my fat mamma offering her pie is my feminine side that enjoys the safety of warm embraces and submits to the fears of the unknown of night’s dark futures.

My nerves are frayed from my own self-imposed ideals that get shaken every time something rattles those delicate beliefs that I have nurtured thru snow and drought, revealing how foolish I truly am to hang on to a dust covered past.

Without liberalism I would succumb to the beliefs of all others that have passed before me, not recognizing my own individuality. Liberalism has allowed that one treasure, individuality, to be dug up from the grave of indifference and greed, to finally see the light of day that it so eagerly needs to flourish upon this most liberal of planets in our solar system.

I salute life with all its diversity...we are all flowers in this garden of eternal life, each bloom with its own essence, each flower its own beauty... and I liberally celebrate those differences.

<center>___________</center>

Cecil
[originally written 6/26/2001]

[gypsyjoker]

those that follow the moral codes engraved into their psyches by foolish archetypes that profess to know what my own spirit should demonstrate to their immature attitudes.

ouch
ten four
lets stay comfortable

my fat mamma offering her pie is my feminine side that enjoys the safety of warm embraces and submits to the fears of the unknown of night’s dark futures.

I got no fat mamma
But I got a sister, my sister my mirror
Thinking about rhetorical questions. As fuked up as the international world situation is why do women still have babies. Well in most of the world they have no choice, they are dam near chattel.
But I think it is also that they are such optimists. They believe in the power of love.

when I first read LR's post I thought of one you had wrote on liberalism. But not this one. I think the other one was sardonic? about how do you tell conserv from liberal, something about if I belong to NRA, If I go to NASCAR racings, kind of a cultrual description. I liked that one too.

[mnaz]

My liberalism frees me from the preponderancy of conservative cowardness...those that deem what is right for me, those that call halt to my doings, those that fear change and tomorrows that they cannot grasp, those that follow the moral codes engraved into their psyches by foolish archetypes that profess to know what my own spirit should demonstrate to their immature attitudes.

The morality nazis, the religious bigots/zealots. A cancer on society, no doubt. They mostly identify themselves as "conservative". However, we should note that many "conservatives" (though perhaps not most, admittedly), those whom I would consider true conservatives, want nothing to do with such forms of extremism.

My liberalism allows every man/woman to face their own challenges in life, allows each person to speak the truths that they believe, allows anyone’s religion a ground to pray on, allows mankind to coexist and respect others beliefs, philosophies, ideas to root, even on the sidewalk cracks, to bloom and draw forth the undiscriminating bee to its nectars.

What always strikes me in these discussions is how similar the basic underlying philosophies are, coming from supposedly opposite ends of the spectrum. With only a minimal tweak here and there, this could be a conservative's statement of belief, quite similar to your own.

My liberalism gives all the opportunity to express their own god given being, gives the diversity of life its due respect, gives halt to the reckless behavior of conservative greed to fill their own wallets, leaving others penniless and at their mercy.

Here's where we get to the "meat" of it. Both liberal and conservative desire individual freedoms, social responsibility and welfare, but differ on how to get there. Liberalism would have these needs administered by government programs, while conservatism would have these needs attended to by individual responsibility and "free enterprise". Liberalism isn't strictly "socialism". Socialism exists with both liberal and conservative regimes; the only argument concerns to what extent it should exist. I generally "err on the side of safety" and lean more toward liberalism, because as much as I would like to believe that the private sector could step in and care for those truly in need, I don't see it as realistic.

perfection is not what we wish it to be, but perfection lies in the acceptance of this stage of life to perform its script, without interference from kings or queens, without interference from monarchs or oligarches, without interference from the self professed one-to-one-with-god psuedo-saints.

Oddly enough, many conservatives would voice the same complaint in some form against those liberals whom they consider self-righteous social reformers, bent on taking away their individual rights. (I've spent much time in the "heartland" recently. I hear this over and over.)

Of course, aside from individuality, freedoms, etc., the whole issue of the long-term picture is a other major conservative-liberal battleground, particularly environmentalism, etc. Where should laws to protect us (and our planet) for our own good trump individual rights? Again, the underlying philosophies/goals are often not dissimilar; the battles are of degree and perception, and how to "get from here to there"....

Good post, Cecil.

[mtmynd]

... and thanks for the comments, mnaz. it occurred to me that there really is very little difference between 'liberal/conservative' as we all have some of both within us... it's just those names that we fight to live up to, defend and protect, whereas the only one thing that is worthy to defend and protect is honesty... and freedom.

and now my defense: the name of my post "my liberalism" is to differenciate it from my "being liberal"...

[tinkerjack]

I try not to be cynical but I can’t keep up, Lily Tomlin

a cynical liberal
democrat
liberalism, a fine point a fine line, liberty, New Hampshire has such a cheerful liscence plate motto, live free or die.

man I have no idea what you all are talking about. I must have got stoned and missed it.

[mtmynd]

Jack (thought I'd get down to basics by using that name )...

"man I have no idea what you all are talking about..."

you don't know what yer missin'.. messin' with LR's topic... apologize, dammit!!

[tinkerjack]

I got to re read it. I get so impulsive. I am sure you covered the ground the logic, jam, geez I wish understood all that chompsky stuff when the media is the message.


I listen to npr I don't watch much TV, when I do I watch more Jim L news hour than fox. I like the talking heads on sunday morning. I like the the business news. I am just a news junky ever since I read Dos Pasos for the first time. SOmetime I wish you would repost that hot/cold thing you wrote. radio is hot for me
tv is cold

sorry LR got to go, I would stay with my cynical liberal label, but I lost cecils jam, not his fault, me. going to reread this whole bit. you most likely right, going to find out what I am missing

[mnaz]

Point taken, Cecil.

(Seems to me I remember this discussion on LK a couple years back, with Illuminara and that whole group.... What a lively, sprawling debate that turned into! Is this the same piece?)

[e_dog]

sounds like you are a liberal who made a mistake, LRod, that is, supporting the Republicans and Bhairy Goldfinger.

how 'bout conservative liberalism?

the term 'conservative' was apt for describing the right when it was an era of progress. the right wanted to conserve the past i.e. conserve white, male bourgeois capitalist privilege against the progressive movements of workers, feminists, people of color, immigrants, environmentalists, homosexuals.

today, we have moved past that historical moment. the right-wing reaction has gained strength such that the real social movement of the 1980s, 90s and today is the activism of the right, including the christian coalition, the war pigs of the military industrial complex, the republican party of the Reagan and Gingrich revolutions, and their allied 'moderates' like bill clinton, lieberman, etc. the Republicans are not really 'conservative' anymore. they are seeking to subvert the liberal and egalitarian progress of the 60s, in other words the real conservatives in the sense of conserving the tradition, would be liberals, including both those in favor of the welfare state, govt regulation of private enterprise and civil libertarians. they are on the defensive. so, the labels of conservative vs liberal are more misleading than helpful. Bush et al. aren't conservative, they are RADICAL Right-wingers. more fascist, or reactionary, than conservative.

[mtmynd]

mnaz - yeah, I've posted that one more than once and I do remember the differences of opinion it brought in the threads, especially Carmen.

[jimboloco]

Last week at work, my friend Dori asked me, "Are you converted yet? Gonna join the Republican Paarty?"

I said, "Dori, (her real name is Carol, she is nicknamed after the scattedbrained fish in "Finding Nemo) I'd rather go to hell first."

And I ask her, "why not think for yourself, become an independent. I'm an independent." She kind of nods her head.

Once the doors of perception are loosed, even the tail end of a thread can be liberating.

I voted for Nixon in '68. But when I voted for McGovern in '72, I had already made a radical break and was seriously alienated. And I think that state of bewilderment speaks clearly to me even now, with career occupation, involvement in family. I still seek out others at the margins of society who while participating in it are also outside of it. So I guess I would call myself an outsider, an outlaw, a renegade spirit. You don't drop acid and drink whiskey, then march through a snowstorm with anti-war vets and then somehow return to normalcy completely. Gotta be clear about it. Am chopping wood and carrying water.

One would hope that the liberal wing of the political mainstream would start emphasing some common sense and reasonable decisions sometime before too awful long. There is so much that is wrong.

[Doreen Peri]

Nice name your friend nicknamed herself with, jimbo.

love,

Dori