Is military force ever justified (past self-defense)?

[mnaz]

Is there ever a time when a superpower might be justified in using military force, not strictly in self-defense? I've discussed my views on the 2003 Iraq invasion, which I opposed from the start, because there were other ways to handle the situation besides full-scale war, and because I was suspicious of our true motives; even more suspicious as the war drags on. I have come to admit that a half-decent argument can be made to justify the removal of Saddam Hussein by force, in a limited action of some kind; however this is a far cry from the bumbling, heavy-handed endless occupation with imperial designs and profiteering that has taken place since.

But what about other situations? Was intervention in Bosnia justified? Would military intervention to stop genocide be justified, such as in Sudan? Should isolationism, or pacifism, be an absolute? Any thoughts?

[mtmynd]

"Any thoughts?" What a question to ask me!!

Let's begin at the beginning - "Is there ever a time when a superpower might be justified in using military force?"

Your use of the word "superpower" can have the ability to stifle any general discourse on your post, mnaz. Just because the U.S. at this place and time in world history is a 'superpower' should not lessen the use of military power to be used in defense of national security, regardless of the country, U.S. or not.

But I do know you are specifically referring to our invasion of Iraq, and that, whether we are a superpower or not, should not have been accomplished, as we both agree. If we are to judge the overthrow of Saddam by the looks and attitudes of the people of Baghdad (Baghdaddies?), we might have done the right thing. I say 'might have' solely on witnessing the crowds of cheering 'Baghdaddies' blowing their car horns on that day the statue of Saddam was brought down. (Were the people of other towns and cities just as joyous?)

But that does not justify any military force to enter a country to overthrow any government without the consent and participation of the world political community.

[tinkerjack]

Not to change the subject, but there were at a lot of democratic senators that voted against the Iraq war. No matter what the arguement for the war was there were I think over 20 senators that voted against it. Speaking for myself I say no. there is no reason for going to war. There is only one reason when war goes to you. This was a pre emptive (read war of agression). No reason for this war. None. Absolutely none.

[mnaz]

I tend to agree with you, TJ.

It's true that I stated my Iraq war stance in my post above, but my question is intended more in a general sense. Is there ever a time when a country is justified in using military force against another country, not strictly in self-defense?

The only possible example I could think of was genocide intervention, but I was wondering what others thought. You know, there are plenty of folks out there who consider strict pacifism to be dangerous, even "immoral".

[knip]

i tend to agree with john locke...in my words, when a ruler or people in authority act beyond the authority they were given to represent the people, then the people have the right to remove them by force

so the question becomes one of defining the people and their will, and how far that extends, and how decisions in that regard are made

[hester_prynne]

NO! NEVER! Uh Uh. Shake head back and forth vigorously.....

It strikes me as very sad indeed what the word superpower conjures up in my mind. I see military pictures, guns, green, men on rampages of power, innocent bystanders falling dead and gone forever.........

It could be such a positive word too. Superpower humanitarian. Superpower for peace. Superpower for equality, justice, superpower for ensuring that nobody hits and that everybody eats. Superpower of love....Superwonderfulpower....etc......
But hey, it's this kind of thinking that got me where I am today.
Alone and nowhere.
Silly me!
Heh.
H

[Zlatko Waterman]

(The US Methodists belatedly take a stance-- and Bush prays . . .)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1111-08.htm

[tinkerjack]

In the words of another famous Methodist "bob zimmerman" "with god on our side."

Knip happy poppy day, thought about ya. Why don't you write more stuff about the sea? I can't remember anything you ever wrote about the ocean. Well not to change the subject but you speak from the POV of a parlimentary system, it is a lot easier to do regime change.

so the question becomes one of defining the people and their will

instead of a vote of no confidence all we got are those fuking polls. And there is a very lucrative industry that has grown up around poll taking. The trick is asking the questions to get the answers you want. Rwanda should have justified military force, a police action I think Harry Truman called it.

Cecil that statue coming down, seems like I have seen that picture over and over for the whole twentieth century (sixty years of it anyway)

I been trying to avoid the politics of sin, cynicism and despair, suffering from a protestant work effort I have tried to use the work of the intellect for the relief of man's estate

paraphrase of Norman O Brown introduction to Life Against Death(you can learn more about Drs. Freud and Swift than you ever wanted to know)
Hester I think mnaz asked a pretty simple question. Or maybe I am very simple. I agree with you, super power or not, we do not have the right to start wars. We do have the right of self defense. I thought that was what Afghanistan was all about?

[whimsicaldeb]

...The US Methodists belatedly take a stance...

Hi Z, great link! (thank you)

from the article ...

In their statement, the bishops pledged to pray daily for the end of the war, for its American and Iraqi victims and for American leaders to find "truth, humility and policies of peace through justice."

"We confess our preoccupation with institutional enhancement and limited agendas while American men and women are sent to Iraq to kill and be killed, while thousands of Iraqi people needlessly suffer and die, while poverty increases and preventable diseases go untreated," the statement said.

Better late than never, for without this change of heart & mind they would still be part of those in resistance, making/keeping things harder than it needs to be.

Now, they aren’t.

What this shows is yet another step has been taken, another group of people have stopped their mindless support without question or thought, and have turned around to begin (once again) in a better direction, a direction for humanity instead of against it.

Another group has heard you, what you've been working/saying all along, my friend.

We need this, we need them, for we need each other … for majority to make/keep things moving forward for the good of the whole.

[tinkerjack]

I did not mean to belittle it Z, it is a little too late for organized religion, if only one of those preachers could sing like Dylan.

Christ I hope I am just an old grouchy cynic. I got one dam vote in 2006 and I got to cast it in bush country. Yeah I hope the methodists can help. Pat Robertson so media savvy I don't know any methodists, I don't go to church anymore, it sure seems like the wacko preachers on bushco got a tight ship, they can march enough votes to swing it there way. 16 percent of texans voted in this last election in sanato.

sure hope it means something
pardon my cynicism

I try not to be cynical but I can't seem to catch up

Lily TOmlin

[Zlatko Waterman]

Dear Tink and Deb:

The emphasis in my post was actually on "belatedly."

So many institutional religions get hung up ( in the case of Christianity, I realize this could be a very bad unintentional pun-- it isn't . . .) on deciding whether war is "just" or not.

Here's a nice statement by George Regas, currently my favorite Christian theologian.

You will recall ( from another post of mine) that after Regas criticized the US war policy, Bush sent the IRS out to threaten his church ( he is the former pastor there) with the loss of their tax-exempt status.

This is a follow-up statement by Regas after the IRS/Bushco threat:


http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/latimes908.html



--Z

[hester_prynne]

I think we need to really stress the fact that Bush used 9/11 as an opportunity to carry out a personal goal. Whether he knew it or not, however, my money is on him knowing it full well, he and Cheney. Shame on them!

I keep reading/hearing the republicans charging that "everyone thought we should go to war when we attacked"...as if somehow, that excuses everything and everyone. They fall way short of the facts. We were mislead! By people elected for us to trust! At a time when we were most vulnerable. It was unfair, and everyone, including you and me, has been used in this way.
We are hated for what we've done, and continue to do, and that is, create a terrorist breeding ground in Iraq.
Look at the oil profits already!
Ha Ha, the joke is totally on us. Not such a good joke though is it?. In fact, a really bad joke. I don't feel like laughing. do you?

Great link Zlatko, really gives me hope that people are catching on, stepping forward.
It's about fucking time.

The moral of, was it Aesop? still stands. Haste makes waste.
We should have thought about opportunism and vulnerability, how they don't mix at all, in fact, it makes a crime worse, because it's what bullies do, they use vulnerability to do whatever they want. This is the bigger lesson for all of us.

I hope they look real closely into why the Bush Admin, let Osama go. I've smelled a rat since the get go on that one.......and he and his band, which is much larger now, thanks to us, are still wreaking bigger havoc and much more death.

Anyway, here's to the methodists coming out of their stupor.
Let's hope alot more do too.
Let's hope it's not just plain too late.........

H

[mnaz]

Excellent post, hes.... well said, and excellent fire. We need more of it!

[whimsicaldeb]

Hester wrote...

Anyway, here's to the methodists coming out of their stupor.
Let's hope alot more do too.
Let's hope it's not just plain too late.........

I agree, well said and ... Yep, yep, yep


~~~~

tinderjack, I didn't take your posting as belittling in any way. I see someone 'hurt' by all of what's happened, and why, and how. I see myself.

~~~~

Z ... I got the belated part; and I understand the frustration. I too wish they would have seen it all sooner; before … but they didn’t. So ~ I deal with what is, and not with what I wished would have been. For me, that helps.

I have someone I like to read for inspiration as well:
http://www.workingforchange.com/article ... emid=19834

Byron Williams. He's always been 'right there' but luckily (?) for him, all he got (gets still?) are death threats... not the IRS. None the less, for awhile there he was most "unpopular." Took a lot of heat.