Saddam's (former) Threat

[mnaz]

I just got through "debating" a FOX News fan about the bogus case for the Iraq war. Talk about a mindfuck. Why the hell did I waste one moment of my precious time trying to pursue such an objectionable and futile task?

His conclusion? Obviously the whole world agreed in 2003 that Saddam was a grave threat to everyone, and that we could not afford to wait any longer. The whole world, even Clinton. And Saddam was just like Hitler, so that clinches it!

A mind like a steel trap. Propaganda goes in.... nothing else penetrates. Throw the 9/11 Commission at it, the Duelfler Report, the kitchen sink, you name it..... all to no avail.... Jeezus.

Oh, and he also said that we've just about got the war won, but the evil liberal media just isn't reporting it. Actually, I hope he's right about that one.

I swear. Never again.....

[Zlatko Waterman]

Dear mnaz:

Take a look at the last two posts here (mine and Jim's):

http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... 5001#35001


I don't know if you were aware that the US military is currently in the process of re-installing the entire Saddam army, including the "Republican Guard."

Next, we'll be arming them with nuclear weapons . . .

Then they'll be able to "stand up while we stand down" and defend themselves against "the insurgents" . . .

By the way, as you know, millions of people around the world believed that Saddam was no threat to the world or the US, and took to the streets, before and during this war to prove it:

http://www.answers.com/topic/global-pro ... ar-on-iraq

My wife and I were among them, and began protesting and marching every Saturday and attending many anti-war rallies before the American acts of aggression opening our war on Iraq
( second installment).

Someone on this board denied, also by the way, that the "coalition" ( read US and Bushco) ever started a war. including the war (s) in Iraq.



--Z

[Doreen Peri]

What? They're going to re-install the same army?

What's WRONG with these people? geezzzzzzz

So many have died for nothing...

And mnaz? You can't talk sense to the brainwashed... yeah, you should have known better... but applause for trying!

[jimboloco]

i wish my bwain wuz washed
shit time to get soaked!

it's like you have to hit back with bombs

millions of people around the world believed that Saddam was no threat to the world or the US,

not spears

Throw the 9/11 Commission at it, the Duelfler Report,

i mean the basic assumptions at that level
otherwise they will fine point ya to death
over what is a legal combatant etc


15 February protest attendance
Rome 3,000,000
Barcelona 1,300,000
London ≥1,000,000
Madrid ≥660,000
Berlin ≥500,000
Sydney 250,000†
Seville ≥200,000
Damascus 200,000
Montreal 150,000
Melbourne 150,000†
Paris 100,000
New York ≥100,000
Oviedo 100,000
Dublin 100,000
Cádiz 100,000
Los Angeles 100,000
Glasgow 80,000
Toronto 80,000
Amsterdam 75,000
San Francisco 65,000†
Oslo 60,000
Buenos Aires 60,000
Seattle 60,000
Brussels 50,000
Athens 50,000
Montevideo 50,000
Bern 40,000
São Paulo (one figure) 35,000
Stockholm 35,000
Girona 30,000
Belfast 30,000
Copenhagen 25,000
Gothenburg 20,000
Newcastle 20,000
Vancouver 20,000
Helsinki 15,000
Perth 15,000
Vienna 15,000
Luxembourg 14,000
Mexico City 13,000
Trondheim 11,000
Canberra 10,000
Calcutta 10,000
Thessaloniki 10,000
Auckland 10,000
Austin 10,000
Beirut 10,000
Cape Town 10,000
Johannesburg 10,000
Porto 10,000
Leipzig 10,000
Philadelphia 10,000
São Paulo (one figure) 10,000
Zagreb 10,000
Wellington 6,000
Istanbul 5,000
Malmö 5,000
Lismore 5,000
Tokyo 5,000
Calgary 5,000
Ljubljana 5,000
Eugene 4,000
Colorado Springs 4,000
Reykjavík 4,000
Bangkok 3,000
Byron Bay 3,000
Phoenix, Arizona 3,000
Quebec City 3,000
Tel Aviv 3,000
Sarasota 2,500
Bellingen 2,500
Ottawa 2,000
Manila 2,000
Kiev 2,000
Christchurch 2,000
Dhaka 2,000
Sofia 2,000
Warsaw 2,000
Chicoutimi 1,500
Kuala Lumpur 1,500
Dunedin 1,500
Flagstaff 1,000
Hong Kong 1,000
Knoxville 650
New Orleans 500
Akureyri 500
Cyprus 500
Maribor 500
Quito 350
Poznan 300
Lima 300
Moscow 300
San Salvador 250
Lawrenceville, NJ <200
Srinagar 100
Mostar 100
Wanganui 70
Tallinn 60
Almaty 50
McMurdo Station 50
Tauranga 10
(Total of above figures) ≥10,248,590

i'll drink to that hoy hoy hoy!

[mnaz]

I don't know if you were aware that the US military is currently in the process of re-installing the entire Saddam army, including the "Republican Guard."

Then they'll be able to "stand up while we stand down" and defend themselves against "the insurgents" . . .

Well, there's the "exit strategy", I guess.... anything to "show progress" before the next elections. Invade a country without sufficient cause to remove the "bad guys" and promote the "good guys". Then when it all goes badly and becomes a political liability, bring the "bad guys" back in and rename them as "good guys". Yeah. Makes perfect sense, actually. I swear. (and I did swear, didn't I?)....

What the FOX-hypnotized fail to understand is this: Many of us who disagree with Bush's Iraq policy are against preemptive war without sufficient cause, not necessarily against defensive war, in general. Based on the (fraudulent) claims of Saddam's nuclear program/connections, even quite a few lefties (Al Franken, for example) supported the war, or at least conceded that it might become necessary at some point. Renewed weapons inspections gave us the opportunity to evaluate Iraq's wmd situation without starting a war, yet we chose not to pursue this option.

One other thing that comes up without fail in FOXian logic.... the UN's oil-for-food scandal.... invariably cited as a catch-all justification for the invasion, in and of itself.... a sort of "blank check" for the U.S. to take matters into its own hands. I don't follow how full-scale invasion necessarily follows from a UN scandal that could have been exposed and dealt with in other ways, but then, most FOXian logic eludes me. Go figure.

[mnaz]

I mean, it's one thing to argue the merits of a post-Saddam Middle East, in terms of some sort of 'bigger picture progress'. It's admittedly more difficult at times to counter those arguments.

But these morons can't even admit that the post-invasion evidence has proven them wrong about the threat that Iraq posed. They are incapable of recognizing the Admin's trumped-up case for war as a fairly sizable misrepresentation, and then owning up to it as such. Just incapable. It just amazes me.

[jimboloco]

emnaz your friend said that the whole world supported dumping saddamn
and that
the Iraq War is almost won we just don't get it from the media
except from foxymoronic news
mercy

i accept an ossacional dunking in a silent quaker worship
or zen sitting
the immersion always replenishes me
makes me whole

a post-saddam middle east will not be impacted save for the increased flatulence of al-qaida

[Zlatko Waterman]

Since it might be a bit awkward to clip that other post, here it is.

Just so that the wonderful Pentagon logic can be followed closely ( not by those posting here so far-- they already KNOW, of course):

(paste)

Let's see . . . let me get this straight now . . .

Saddam's army were the bad guys, and that's why we killed them . . .

Now the bad guys are being recruited again because they're good guys . . .


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10133733/


The former bad guys, now the good guys, are being recruited to fight the bad guys . . .

Now that the bad guys are good, WE ( the good guys) can fight the bad guys with the former bad guys ( as our good guys) with our own good guys . . .

And once the former bad guys help us defeat the present bad guys, those bad guys ( now the good guys) will take their rightful place fighting the future bad guys ( since those bad guys are now good guys) . . .

That's true only if the present bad guys are the future bad guys and the present good guys ( once the bad guys) remain the good guys . . .

Boy, it sure is fun following all these strategic steps in "bringing liberty . . .

One thing Bushco reveres is clarity . . .

We're only using weapons to illuminate, but then we use other weapons to annihilate . . .

--Z


( end paste)

Kenneth Tomlinson, DUB II's good buddy who heads
( sorry, "headed") the Corporation for Public ( sic) Broadcasting managed to have another of his general friends on the Warren Olney "To the Point" show today.

This general said he just returned from Iraq and morale was very, very high. The boys ( and girls) aren't afraid of getting killed, they're right on their mission, and we're making wonderful progress.

I'm just quoting him. ( the general)

For more on Tomlinson ( sorry, Gypsy, I know you like NPR, and I listen to the Orwellian cheerleading bastards myself . . .), try this:

http://mediacitizen.blogspot.com/2005/1 ... -show.html

Ever wonder why NPR was beginning to sound like it had been programmed by Joseph Goebbels?



--Z

[knip]

mnaz, i agree completely with your assessment of how some on the right have been 'foxisized'...i sincerely believe the same is true for many on the left, and i have had great difficulty engaging in conversation with many (not you, though)

last night during such a conversation with my far left brother he actually said propping up saddam through arms contributions to hold off iran was how things should have been handled...it was 1980 all over again, except he hadn't realized he had said it...when he realized, he tried backtracking, although unsuccessfully...and then he tried to change his story


my perception is there are many co-opting facts on both sides of the fence, and i get pretty tired of it...up here in canada, it seems like an even amount of foxicized righties and whatevericized lefties...it's probably skewed a lot more to the right down in your country...i'm aware of the cultural differences

but i'm at the point where i'm very guarded in my discussions with people, because there are so many agendas out there...the ways in which folks, knowing i'm in the military, try to set me up with seemingly innocent questions is so transparent and tiring...


basically, as a centrist, the left accuses me of being right, and the right accuses me of being left...not everyone, but many


it becomes tiring and depressing, indeed, and i understand where you're coming from

[jimboloco]

I don't exactly understand your brother's comment, knip, that we should have bolstered Iraq against Iran, perhaps it was not taken in context, or something.

I remember that the US got involved after WW2 in Iran with the Shah. One of his Iranian air cadets was my roomie at pilot school for awhile, Musseholi. We were also involved in Iraq as well, and gave support to the Baathist regime for many years. Then things went bad.

I guess my question is about how we are involved with these countries, first as friend and then as foe. Are we really helping matters? And if our involvement has been about "national interests" what are those interests and whose interests are they really. ? I believe that we are serving the interests of the wealthy whose business interests, via the major oil and related corporations, are reeally the interests that shape our military-political-economic policies, not necessarily in that order.
Is this left or right? Whatever it is, i is. i ain't transparent, i hope. no setups involved here, just jammin. a naked brunch.

[jimboloco]

my perception is there are many co-opting facts on both sides of the fence, and i get pretty tired of it...

Oh I was definately a fence straddler for quite a long while
and still have issues with family, work, and self,
that remain important and also complicated.

Is your far-left brother in Vancouver?

I was farther left, west that that,
in the St Elias Mountains
west of Whitehorse.
It is incredible country.



Kluane Lake, Yukon

I spent my 20th birthday there
just after that flew up to the continental divide
more primitive that continental

I believe this is the south end of Kluane Lake
It sits at the base of the St Elias Mtns to the west
out of a rather impressive
glacial delta


and runs to the north a long narrow lake.

In the top photo where the land juts out
to the left from the right
it's the middle ground of the photo
and shows a dark green forest
in contrast with the foreground
which has lovely flowering weeds
springtime yes, and gravel.

The base camp was at the south end of the lake
with a gravel runway by the lake; the gravel road went around as there was more flat space there
at the edge of the glacial delta which melted a cold stream into the lake.

We got to fly about those mountains several times, resupplying this camp and then I went there
for several weeks
then into Alaska with another bush pilot
dropped off 1500 feet below the camp there.
I hiked up for a couple of hours.

I was having conflicts then about myself and what was going with the military and our foreign policy. I was up there with the geography dept at Michigan as a research assistant.
I grew a realy fuzzy beard. Was wondering about things then,
had been exposed to a certain amount of dissent.
The riots in Detroit happened that summer, 1967.

I came home had to shave my beard
signed the line into the professional officer training corps
then MLK got shot
we got invaded at the ROTC bldg by the SDS
my roommates were all against the war
I spent a lot of time at a co-op
as a boarder mostly, near my apt
and spent the next summer tere
when Bobbie got shot and then
to the rotc summer thing

orientation 401

It didn't stop
the questining

I had learned about dissent
and then experienced it first hand as a dissenter.
These memories don't stop and I see things
with my own historical perspective.

Likewise, I'm sure.

Kluane Lake in Winter
some really fine sunny days
Chinook winds
and ice on the lake until May.

[Zlatko Waterman]

Big Billionaire Business joins with the ACLU in opposing Bush's Patriot Act:


http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news2/wsj00.html




--Z

[jimboloco]

Well that's interesting.
Yet the classified manufacture of WMD's inside Amerika will continue. And the Amerikant people kant do nothing about it.
Wonder who makes white phosphorus?

U.S. manufacturers of white phosphorus are FMC Corporation, Pocatello, ID; Monsanto Company, Soda Springs,
http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/phsphor.htm

American troops had also used chemical weapons in Iraq in the form of Napalm bombs. Napalm is a deadly mixture of polystyrene and jet fuel. Napalm gel bonds to the skin of humans while burning making it very difficult to put out. It turns victims into human fireball. The famous pictures of a naked Vietnamese girl victim shocked the world, and lead a 1980 UN convention to ban the use of napalm. The US did not ratify the Napalm ban and is the only country in the world still using the weapon. It even upgraded the Napalm bomb to what they call Mark 77 firebomb that weigh 510 lbs, consisting of 44 lbs of polystyrene-like gel and 63 gallons of jet fuel.

Americans used Napalm originally in Vietnam causing the worst and most disfiguring injuries to victims. Napalm was also used by Israeli forces against Palestinians during the 1967 war. The US used their new upgraded Mark 77 firebomb in an attack on Iraqi troops at Safwan Hill near the Kuwait border where Iraqi “…observation post was obliterated” as reported by Sydney Morning Herald correspondent on March 22nd 2003. Last December American marines used Napalm in their invasion of the city of Fallujah. American Colonel James Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11, stated that in March and April of 2003 Napalm bombs were also dropped near bridges over the Saddam Canal and the Tigris River, south of Baghdad, as reported by Independent reporter in August of same year. The Bush administration, then, admitted the use of napalm in Iraq. American forces used napalm as well as white phosphorous bombs, another incendiary weapon, against civilians during their assault on Fallujah last December. Melted corpses of civilians were discovered in Fallujah.

American forces had also used chemical weapons in the form of gases during their assault on Fallujah especially in the Julan district. Three types of these chemical gases were used. The first was a sleeping gas that caused people to lose consciousness, allowing American forces to run over them with their tanks, and to gather them in houses and blow up the houses over them. The other two gases were poisonous; one turned the color of the victims to yellow, while the other turned their colors into black.

The American use of these weapons, especially DU, in Afghanistan and Iraq did not affect only these two countries, but also all the countries within a radius of approximately 1000 miles. Due to the fact that DU radioactive particles travel with wind, it had already affected countries like Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, China, India, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia.

With the use of these WMD the US had turned into the terrorist monster it claims to fight.


* Dr. Elias Akleh is an Arab writer from a Palestinian descent, born in the town of Beit-Jala and lives in the US.
http://www.amin.org/eng/uncat/2005/jan/jan17.html

[knip]

thanks for the pics, jimbo...i've read many a klondike gold rush story, and know all those names...will make it there someday

[jimboloco]

Knip

I have to say how much I appreciate you being here. You have to realise this. An opened mind inside the Canadian military, it is a welcome anomaly, except I know that you are not the only one.

I would have stayed in, but I was faced with very real choices.
Had to decide if I was gonna fly those racetrack refueling patterns for the ArcLight bombings. I said no. I was told to fly or be court-martialled. There was no other choice, and I was not a slacker.

And I see the same patterns on and on.

There are many other militaries in the world.
But none of them is the superpower the US is.
And we have abused our power.
We have abused our weaponry.
We have abused our citizenry and our social infrastructure.

I want to see an international peacekeeping military and that means that the US military has got to accept international control in interventions for reducing conflict.

Our generals won't speak out at risk of censure,

I am not a pacifist, have never been one. I supported taking out the Serbian artillery around Sarajevo. I supported the war into Afghanistan and can document that with a letter to the Times in November 2002. I also said in that letter I was very worried about expanding the war into Iraq.

But I will go to jail before I will kill an innocent being for the lies and arrogance of the imperial agenda of this USA.

As far as the Yukon shots go, I wanted to input something more humane and personal. I understand your dilemma and applaud you ongoing quest. Take care be well. Jimboloco to the Knipster

Ahoy! All hands on deck.
Shiver me Timbers
got them Poop Deck blues.