Sunday Stream (57) ~ Language Stew

Poetic insight & philosophy by Cecil Lee.

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Sunday Stream (57) ~ Language Stew

Post by mtmynd » November 27th, 2005, 12:16 pm

<center>Language Stew</center>

There are a lot of words in the English language. Most are never used in daily communications with our families, our friends and associates. Many of the little-used words are for writers - writers of legal documents, writers of medical reports or diagnoses, writers of social conditions, writers of sciences and philosophies... you get the idea.

Since there are so many written words by specialists of all kinds, many of us, by necessity, run across these words and end up having to ask, "What does that mean?" And this is using our own 'mother tongue'.

Add to that... here we are, a collective group of human beings some 6-plus billion strong, with (according to some) an estimated 500 languages! And we are expected to live peacefully amongst ourselves..? Even in the language that this is written some will come away from reading it with a different opinion or idea than another. But when we visualize 500 different tongues babbling on and on, it sounds illogical and irrational that 'agreement' would ever be a conclusion.

Translations of words is basically a substitution of one's own language for anothers... not always exactly what the other means, of course, but in most cases a close enough call that we can understand what the other is saying.

The English language has pretty much permeated a great deal of the world. Not always fully understood but language must have some degree of universality to conduct communications in our ever-growing global exchanges... it only makes sense in our present day 'modern' society.

Why English? one may ask. A fair question. If seen as the language utilized for much of today's world, i.e., air transport where flights must rely upon a uniformity of language in order to take-off and land in foreign countries, presently English is the standard. English is pretty much the language of the material world... things and stuff, that which we use for trade and economy.

The internet has provided auto-translations, which allow the language of the writer to be understood by those that do not speak the language of origin. A small step for the writer, a large step for mankind. As cyber-technology continues to evolve, I trust that translations will do the same, so we can all correspond globally in our native language to each other.

But any translation of language, the written or spoken word, may ignore the nuances of the language being translated... perhaps not the end of the world by any means, but somehow that may chip away at the originality of the write.

My question is why we do not simply use the words used for modern life as they are? 'Computer' as an example... why do other languages not call it 'computer' instead of 'ordinateur' (French), 'calcolatore' (Italian),or 'computadora' (Spanish)? Why not just use 'computer'? Is it difficult to pronounce the sound 'computer' in those languages.. or any other language? A three-syllable word, com-pu-ter, doesn't sound very difficult to pronounce. How about Apple's 'I-Pod'... surely it is pronounced 'EE-Pod' in Spanish and not 'aye-pod' only because of the way it is written.

In English we slaughter the Spanish language even though Spanish language people are the largest minority in America. A recent news segment revolved around a fellow named 'Padilla", which the news networks consistently pronounced 'Pa-dilla' instead of 'Pa-dee-ya'... understandable if American's had absolutely no idea of anything in the Spanish language, but really..!

Maybe it's the stubbornness of people to accept change, even though change is the way of the world. Maybe Padilla, in order to maintain the sound of his name, should rewrite his name 'Padeeya'..? Many immigrants to our shores certainly did something similar to that, but given the fact that those that have Spanish as their native origins, and given the fact that those numbers are very large... maybe American's should assimilate more of the Spanish language into their vocabulary. 'Rodeo' was accepted, even though the majority pronounce it 'row-dee-o' vs. 'ro-day-o' not to mention large areas of our country that have Spanish names, primarily in California, but many Southwestern states.

It is not the pronunciation that is the real problem, but the written word. What is more important - the pronunciation or the written word? Given the historical fact that the written word has outlived the pronounciation, I think the later ('latter' vs. 'lay-ter').

Later (lay-ter),

Cecil
27 November 2005


<center>listen to the rose

it does not seek
to improve itself
to reinvent its life
to say more than it is

the rose only speaks
of what it is
thru its beauty
and its fragrance

speaking without tongue
speaking without word
we know what it says
in universal understanding
</center>


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WIREMAN
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Post by WIREMAN » November 27th, 2005, 2:56 pm

....the inglais-espanol thing is big in my life....i speak a simplified spanglish all day on the construction job and i'm getting better after quite a few years now....do you know the way to san jose?????....the rose.....the color sensuous....the feeling scented with a wholeness....and wow, can she be silent.......

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Post by Arcadia » November 27th, 2005, 9:15 pm

language is alive, so it changes. Some changes are associated with imperialism. Great Britain and Spain were imperios, Rome too... What we talk and write, in those terms, well...
I like the musical diversity in Babel languages, but I like to say computadora and not to say computer in my daily speech. Maybe to pronounce correctly Shakespeare could be more interesting.
how many tongues I ever heard?? maybe thirty... forty? there are 500, wow..!

saludos,

Arcadia

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Post by judih » November 27th, 2005, 11:17 pm

sunday spent a great portion of my freetime in school editing an article about english and its permeation into world culture.
interesting sync.

One note of note - since auto-translation is becoming more used and since the net lends itself to localization, many communities go boldly forth in cultural nuances and lingual bliss without a trace of the noble english.

diversity!
with auto-translation, we should be able to globe-trot (remember that expression?) with a click of the finger and widen our cultural perception.

Meanwhile, it is my hope that the art of speaking english will not be lost. May grammar and spelling somehow withstand the i-message/phone text era.

thanks for the fragrant rose, Cecil. A rose in any language would smell as sweet.

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Post by Artguy » November 28th, 2005, 4:47 pm

I live in a bi-lingual house...my wife being francophone from Quebec, I'm an anglo Canadian, and my daughter speaks both, often in the same sentence, and is educated in both. I can spaek and wriye some French...when we go to Quebec I try and make the transition with varying degrees of success. However I have made a conscious effort to never allow our house to become unilingual French, for the benefit of our daughter and it has paid off successfully...

I was once in a tvern in a small town in Quebec....wanted to order some poutine ( a local delicassy of french fries with gravy and melted chees curd), I asked poutin, which is a whore....just a little difference in pronounciation....

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Post by mtmynd » November 28th, 2005, 5:19 pm

wireman - interesting that spanglish is being spoken in balto... good for ya', guy, for picking up on it! :)

Arcadia - true that language is by the imperialists... but maybe not so in Iraq! ;) As soon as Judih & I perfect the language translators, all will be able to communicate worldwide!! :lol:

Judih - do I remember 'globe-trottin..? You betcha'! I now "let my fingers do the walking" (remember that one?) thru this here 'puter. It won't be long, imho, before the translator will be up for all, worldwide, then nothing will slip passed any of us... it should be most interesting (damn, i use that word 'interesting' more than i should! interesting...) Thanks for the vibe exchange... Sunday's may be the day for such.

artguy - because of the heavy influence of spanish round these parts, bilingual has become Spanglish ... hearing the combination of both English and Spanish within the same conversation is a given here on the border... Does that happen with your wife and yourself, or within the French community?

Thanks to y'all for chiming in on this Stream...

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Post by panta rhei » November 28th, 2005, 6:27 pm

the variety of languages is fascinating. the idea of language itself is fascinating, and the use of it is even more!

and why should we all say 'computer' when there are such delicious words as rechner, machshav and bilgisayar for it??

let's all just babel along and endulge in the blissfull richness... may understanding then come through the process of communicating itself.

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Post by mtmynd » November 28th, 2005, 10:22 pm

Yes, Panta, language is a varied and wonderful means of communicating.

Taking a word like 'computer' however, is the name of the machine, not unlike the name of, say yourself, 'Anemone'? Would you not like to be called by that name... over an interpretation of that name? I would prefer to be called 'Cecil' over being called 'Watson' only because that is my given name. It's not so much the word or how it is spelled but the sound that the letters, A-n-e-m-o-n-e, make when pronounce... you respond to that sound.. you are that sound... that sound is what identifies you, how people visualize you.

Peculiar how we humans don't mind calling other things by whatever we want, but when it comes to our own names, that is somehow a taboo. We have respect for another's name, whether it be the first name or the last name... to call those other than what they are are not generally accepted. The only exception would be what in English we call a 'nickname'... a name of affection on some level that brings sense of belonging to that person into a social group... a personal name.

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Post by panta rhei » November 29th, 2005, 8:58 am

hmmm - i don't think that "computer" is a proper name, like a personal, given name.... it's not a brand name, not like "kleenex" or "coca cola", but a term for the quality and nature of the thing; like the expressions "paper tissue" or "soda/pop/lemonade" (or however that is called).

the origin and evolution of the word computer derives from the latin computare, which means the same as the english verb compute: to determine by mathematical means. com means "together" and putare "to count, to calculate".

calculating and computing devices have been used for a long time already - by the greek and throughout the middle ages until the 20th century, when the devices went from mechanical to analog to digital.
in 1623 the first mechanical calculator was built in germany. other machines followed.
the first 'computers' in the 30's and 40's of the last century, like those of konrad zuse, howard aiken and the manchester mark I, were called "rechenautomat" (calculating automat), "automatic sequence controlled calculator" or "automatic computing system".

originally, a computer or computor was a person who did mathematical calculations under the direction of a mathematician, often with the aid of a variety of mechanical calculating devices from the abacus onward.

the oxford english dictionary lists the year 1897 as the first year the word "computer" was used to refer to a mechanical calculating device, to a calculating automat, to an automatic sequence controlled calculator, to an automatic computing system.

i don't know whether the expressions for 'computer' in other languages have been coined afterwards or simultaneously - but what's for sure is, that the complexity and flexibility of the computer shows in the variety of its names. all those many existing terms refer to certain characteristics of the computer and point to the different ways of using it.

the word "computer" describes the device's charakter of calculating, as do the german word "rechner" (which is used besides the term 'computer') and the italian "calcolatore".
the french "ordinateur" means organizer, or sorting machine (the word ordinateur was coined on the request of IBM, to replace the word “calculateur” in 1955, btw).
in swedish, a computer is called "dator" from "data".
in finnish, "tietokone" is literally a "knowledge machine".
the icelandic term "tölva" (tala = number, völva= fortune-teller) refers to the surprises a computer can bring (!!).
the hebrew word for computer, machshav comes from the root word chet, shin, bet, which stands for 'to think'.
in chinese, a computer is called "dian now" or an "electric brain".

maybe there are also other terms in other languages that name the computer's nature of communicating, searching, storing, comparing, copying, remembering, identifying,displaying, and so on.
what might the turkish "bilgisayar" be meaning, for instance? or the slovenic "računalnik"? the hungarian "számitogép"?

if i name my personal computer anemone or cecil or pyoofeecukedadleeyah, than, well, that's the name it's been given, and if it did have preferances, it surely would prefer to be called by that name and not by funny translation of it.
yet an english person would call it "pyoofeecukedadleeyah, the computer", while a german would say "pyoofeecukedadleeyah, der rechner", a person from italy "pyoofeecukedadleeyah, le calcolatore", an israeli "pyoofeecukedadleeyah, hamachshav" and a fin "pyoofeecukedadleeyah tietokone".... just as you would say "cecil, the man" and i "cecil, der mann", while you at the same time are certainly also "cecil, le homme", "cecil l'uomo", "cecil ha'ish", and so on.....

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Post by judih » November 29th, 2005, 9:33 am

my computer calls me
too much
too often

i never call back

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Post by mtmynd » November 29th, 2005, 11:50 am

Quite the reply here, Panta! Brought me many smiles... :) I agree with all that you are saying, so perhaps my inference was weak.

I was using the word 'computer' as an example of, not a proper noun, but merely a sound. We may use any word regardless of whether it is deemed a 'proper' noun or simply a noun to signify an object... 'kleenex', 'kotex', 'coke', for examples, as these words describe more of the object than the brand name (at least in English). True, if we analyze the words themselves, we immediately know that these words are trademarks (read 'proper') names of the brand of item for which they are intended, however, we (the public) have coined these 'sounds' to represent all things which fulfill the objects use, whether correct or not. Perhaps the currently 'hot brand' for today, Apple's I-Pod, may eventually be used for the common sound for all objects that fulfill what the I-Pod has become. Time will tell...

Here on the border where I live, it is a reality that the mix of both English and Spanish are intermixed in general conversation. I hear it ('Spanglish') more often than not... so much so, that I find even myself using some form of it... interjecting Spanish words within my English. Words (sounds) evolve as cultures move and evolve... a natural occurence.

Even though I do understand the differences between what we call a proper noun and a noun, I do not fully grasp the reasoning behind using the noun sound simply to signify one's mother tongue and yet in the same breath, use the proper noun to 'respect' the user of that sound. Would Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone be universally called a 'GrahamBell' had he not given the object a noun sound and referred to it as a 'GrahamBell'? The list goes on regardless of country of origin with inventions, but giving the invented object a 'noun' versus a 'proper noun' somehow makes the object subject to sound differentiation, depneding upon the language using it. (Am I clear on this :lol: ).

Thank you for taking time out with your reply, Panta... it's good for my mind! What I'd call 'mental masturbation'... :wink:

Judih - when you hear your computer calling you 'Judih', let me know! 'too much' or 'too often' is not proper!! :lol:

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Post by panta rhei » November 29th, 2005, 4:53 pm

Even though I do understand the differences between what we call a proper noun and a noun, I do not fully grasp the reasoning behind using the noun sound simply to signify one's mother tongue and yet in the same breath, use the proper noun to 'respect' the user of that sound. Would Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone be universally called a 'GrahamBell' had he not given the object a noun sound and referred to it as a 'GrahamBell'? The list goes on regardless of country of origin with inventions, but giving the invented object a 'noun' versus a 'proper noun' somehow makes the object subject to sound differentiation, depneding upon the language using it. (Am I clear on this ).
not quite, cecil, not quite... at least not to me, but that might be because of the the sound differentiation of the language of your mind and mine, or something like that... ha!

i am not even sure if i'm using the english term 'proper noun' correctly... if it really expresses the equivalent of of the german expression i mean to express. ha, again!

would a telephone be called graham-bell universally if alexander had named it that way back then?
maybe - but maybe it would be called "voxeposit" (from the latin version of the greek tele(far away)phone(voice): vox seposita), "earspeaker" or "sprechhörmaschine" (speakhearmachine).

a cellphone is called handy in germany, natel in switzerland, telefonino in italy, portable in france, matkapuhelimet in finnland.
in germany, television or tv is called fernseher (literally: far away looker, same as in tele(far away)vision(sight)). and while the brand name "kleenex" in america has become a substitue for the describing species term "paper tissue", here in germany it is just a brand name - whereas the brand name "tempo" has become an equivalent for the noun "papiertaschentuch" (paper tissue).

the noun describes a species. sound/pronunciation and words change according to the language it is expressed in.
the proper noun is a personally given name (name of a person or trademark). it must not be changed by the language of the speaker.

... and what am i trying to prove with this?
i have no idea.
all i know is that just like things change, names do, too - and in a way, they are like the observations of the seven blind men trying to describe the elephant in that fable. they're all equally right and incorrect at the same time.... just expressing parts from a certain viewpoint (language / culture background / history, etc.).
together, they paint a whole.

thanks for the thought stimulus, cecil (proper noun, brand name), thinker (noun that is subject to change)!

-a

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Post by tinkerjack » November 30th, 2005, 3:34 am

Why English?
Why Aryan?
English is the standard
Have you ever played what if? Chess?
How close German came to being the standard. As far as science it almost was.

But any translation of language, the written or spoken word, may ignore the nuances of the language being translated... perhaps not the end of the world by any means, but somehow that may chip away at the originality of the write.
Ah so, but it only hurts when I laugh.
Dead languages, Latin, Aramaic, English?

My question is why we do not simply use the words used for modern life as they are? 'Computer' as an example...
How about your silicon pal who is fun to be with?

listen to the rose

speaking without word



as beautiful and unexpected as a November rose.
Gracias

Disclaimer*
from here on down it is turtles. just a thamaturgical writing machine that sucks words out of my finger tips.
Panta I have no idea what anyone is talking about here other than Cecil, At this point in time I have only read his original post once. And I have only skimmed the replies. So if you don't know, you can imagine how clueless I am. Got to go back and reread he string, I thought Cecil's comment about words as sounds. My reference to German was before I read your reply
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Post by panta rhei » November 30th, 2005, 4:54 am

Panta I have no idea what anyone is talking about here
truckin - we're using language to talk about itself!

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Post by tinkerjack » November 30th, 2005, 8:40 am

i don't know whether the expressions for 'computer' in other languages have been coined afterwards or simultaneously - but what's for sure is, that the complexity and flexibility of the computer shows in the variety of its names. all those many existing terms refer to certain characteristics of the computer and point to the different ways of using it.
I know panta, about language, but but
I don’t have a clue about linguistics, maybe Zen is a non intellectual way back to the magical state of childhood, before words. Before I became this being who is so eager to connect the word dots together in meaning full sounding phrases like intelligent design.
Cecil seemed to be asking or musing on why English became the lingua franca of the world. I was thinking about English as a dead language. That is only used for marketing purposes. When I was in college (I mean a long time sophomore) German was very important for anyone thinking about a major in any of the sciences.

Speaking about words, computers, and mere human beings have you ever stumbled on some obscure sounding name in an Obituary and read The Father Of the world wide web dies, or the father of the internet, or ARPA pioneer subcumbs. The father of Cybernetics, he wrote a book about Language that was way over my head. But one sentence has stayed with me for a long time. The Title of the Book was The Human Use of Human Beings. The sentence was “when we arm ourselves, we arm our enemies.” Yeah the book was all about language communication and Jam.


Just thinking about different ways of using this silicon extension to our carbon based nervous system.
my computer calls me
too much
too often

i never call back
Watched over by machines of loving grace, I wish I could remember the rest of the poem


You what gets me about spanish, is how them snow birds come down here and bitch about spanish speakers. Oh that Yellow Rose of Texas, it is a rose that grows in spanish harlem.
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