Cartoon Power: Danish newspaper and cartoons of Muhammad

[stilltrucking]

irrational behavior is dictated by their religion, i say, their religion is shit.

Trying to think who said it Hegel?" "That whore goddess reason" quoted from memory. I watch too many preachers on TV reasonable men, one line that comes to mind, "And this is where Satan made his mistake" they reason from the bible or the koran, like it was a physics text book.
Speaking of that I wonder where Mr. Rushdie is?
We are not rational animals.

Irrational Man, I can't remember a dam thing about that book. My mind is a joke.

[e_dog]

firsty wrote:

or simply, does it end with it being the fault of the western world that the middle east is the way it is? western nations suppressed philosophy, democracy, freedom? that can be your argument, if you want it to be.

that's exactly what i saying, in part. here's a narrative overview: there was a thing called the "Cold War" in which the two superpowers competed for world dominance; the U.S. foreign policymakers were afraid of a third world that either aligned with the Reds or asserted a Third Way, eithere of which would jeopardize the capitalist's interests in economic exploitation of third-world resources and markets, so it sought to undermine either of those options; one way was to sow discord and undermine what were potentially strongly independent nationalists and/or 'communist' movements (i.e. nationalist movements forced to turn to the Soviets or Cubans or Chinese for material assistance in fighting their U.S.-backed opponents); that meant in some cases like Afganistan, and also in the Middle East, supporting the Islamic movements or at least eliminating or undermining the power of Islamicists' principle rivals such as the Arab secular nationalists.

on another point of contention, you (to use the second-person as firsty has requested) just said that the 'they' who are, in your view, 'uncivilized' are the 'protesters.' but don't you mean the violent ones only? certainly, despite what gets on TV, there are more nonviolent protesters than violent ones and the nonviolent ones are, far from being 'uncivilized' precisely doing what free speech is for--protesting.

[stilltrucking]

“the whore Reason.” The view that men could justify their private or collective lives in theological terms and determine whether they were in harmony with the divine seemed to him sheer pride and superstition

[firsty]

we are not rational men, indeed. yeah, that quote (st) was taken from a larger phrase and i certainly dont mean that any religion that engages in irrational behavior is for shit.

at least not on this thread.

edog - so the responsibility for violent middle eastern behavior ENDS with the cold war and is ALL the fault of western foreigners? thats pretty fucking interesting. particularly considering that america got out from under imperialistic british rule back 230 years ago. so when the cold war started, i'm pretty sure they were still stoning people in saudi arabia.

and so then when confronted with democracy, somehow these societies still choose islamic-based governments. in the case of palestine, they choose a terrorist organization.

is this because of lack of choices or what? is western society to blame for everything? thats pretty easy, then.

yes, i only mean the violent protesters. i was specifically talking about the violent protests involving burning buildings. was that unclear? or are you just letting me know that some factors exist that i wasnt talking about. in case anyone's wondering, i'm also aware that my next door neighbor, that brownskinned guy who has a funny name, he's not a bad guy and i think he washes himself most of the time, pretty civilized. just to let you know that i'm not talking about him, either.

[stilltrucking]

got out from under imperialistic british rule back 230 years

Yeah we could have wound up with universal health insurance like Canada, god forbid

The guy who owned the grocery store in a small town in virgina was a photographer who was on the sceene and took pictures of the King David hotel. He would not sell them, said it was blood money. He was a sweet old man, he missed the old country. I used to have people tell me he was a terrorist and had secrete meetings at his store. . I think he was palestinian or Jordanian, not sure what the difference is, I used to get pissed and say why are you telling me go to the FBI

[firsty]

those fucking founding fathers. if only they had waited, i'd have free health care. i knew those wigs were up to something.

[e_dog]

no, responsibility never 'ends.' i don't know what that means. everyone is guilty. original sin is coextensive with touching money, only the buddhist monks are free of it, and even some of them have engaged in a kind of suicidal violence for peace.

i'm not saying that saudi arabia was more progessive before U.S. involvement in the region; i'm saying Saudi Arabia wouldn't exist as "Saudi" Arabia (i.e. the monarchic House of Saud) at all, by now, without U.S. involvement.

true, Bush and Cheney and so on would say that the U.S. is a force for democracy in the world.

but only schoolchildren who aren't old enough to know better, and adults who never bother to, can believe the lies that the elites tell about U.S. foreign intervention being about spreading 'Democracy.' unless by 'Democracy' one means 'Napalm.'

[firsty]

i think i see what you're driving at, some other point that has nothing to do with anything i was talking about. kickass.

[stilltrucking]

i think lightnin rod hit the nail on the head. wars are fought for profound reasons not understood by focusing on a single symbolic tipping point.

All human behavior is over determined

Freud

I watch too much God TV Inc. I heard someone talking about Iran when it was a democracy under the Shah. The whole area of the middle east was very pro Nazi during world war II. In fact the Jews and Arabs got along pretty well untill WWII. Most of this shit goes back to the fall of the Ottoman empire and treaty of Versailes and the Balfour proclomation. You all have probably never heard of the ST LOUIS, the ship full of Jewish refugees that was turned away from every country they sought refuge in. THe ship finally returned to Germany and few survived. You all can talk about the about the palestinians being occupied by Jews, but nobody wanted the death camp surivors after the war either. I am not a Zionist, I feel no need to live in the so called Holy land, but I hope some of my relatives who we have not heard from in years are living there somewhere.

We forget about the king david hotel, I got on Microbe's case once about how the whole problem was Britians and France fault.

It is enough to make me want to be an anarchist. Yes the problem is milatarism and capitlism, the us is the worst because we are the strongest, but I think there are plenty of countries that would do the same if they could

For some reason France, and the Green Peace ship Rainbow warrior come to mind

just ignore me
i am rambling all over the place

one small group of people the source of so much turmoil, Islam Christianity and their Jewish roots. Chosen people, sometimes I wonder what the choice was?

[e_dog]

firsty, who apparently believes that everything has to be directed to or revolve around him, wrote:

think i see what you're driving at, some other point that has nothing to do with anything i was talking about.

well as it turns out,
each paragraph in my above post thematizes a word that you brought up in earlier posts: you asked whether 'responsibility' for unrest in the muslim world belongs exclusively to the west; you claimed that Saudi Arabia was publicly punishing long before the cold war; and even earlier you expressed skepticism at my suggestion that the West has caused anti-democratic tendencies in the Middle East. my post addressed these themes.

[stilltrucking]

West has caused anti-democratic tendencies in the Middle East

I must have missed that. Is that what you call a no brainer?

Yes how could anyone disagree with that statement.

We been roiling the waters for a hundred years. Classic case is the Shah

This whole thing with "tipping points" I think that guy just won a noble prize for Game Theory. He was the one that came up with Mutally Assured Destruction. during the cold war Or MAD. Clever guy.

where the hell is my peace bonus?

[e_dog]

"one small group of people the source of so much turmoil, Islam Christianity and their Jewish roots. Chosen people, sometimes I wonder what the choice was?" -- stilltruckin

Jewish and Greek culture account for the roots of all that is good in Western civilization. the rest is mere mimicry, distortion, revision and refinement. Moses and Socrates, those cats knew how to speak the truth.

[firsty]

asked whether 'responsibility' for unrest in the muslim world belongs exclusively to the west

i did? shit. i forgot where. i thought i was saying that theyre responsible for their own uncivilized behavior. and i was asking you, rhetorically, if the responsibility ENDS with the west, which you said, yes, then you asked what ENDS meant. i think. not sure. i'm losing track, honestly.

claimed that Saudi Arabia was publicly punishing long before the cold war; and

yeah, in response to your post. so?

expressed skepticism at my suggestion that the West has caused anti-democratic tendencies in the Middle East

i missed that entirely. you put forth the cold war and the west as a response to my question about the basic responsibility for things. i certainly would NEVER suggest that the west hasnt caused antidemocratic tendencies in the middle east.

my point about you going off topic is this: what does napalm, democractic imperialism, and anything else you were talking about have to do with the violent response in the middle east to a cartoon with muhammed with a bomb in his hat? if you're just throwing out cliche generalizations about BAD WEST to somehow justify the VERY SPECIFIC issue at hand, then thats cool. go with that.

[firsty]

Jewish and Greek culture account for the roots of all that is good in Western civilization. the rest is mere mimicry, distortion, revision and refinement.

o my. REALLY?

[mnaz]

Moses...

Isn't he the cat who was slated to lead the Israelites into Canaan, the "promised land", whereupon he would direct his army to slaughter all existing inhabitants and claim the land? Talk about your imperialism..... But Moses pissed off God at some point, and the marauding duties were turned over to Joshua, who did a fine job of it-- even convinced God to delay the sunset once so that he could finish off one particular town... forget which one. And then there was Samson, who helped out with the regional genocide; he once killed 100,000 Philistines with the "jawbone of an ass", but the Philistines didn't worship the right God, so it was OK. Or was all of this O.T. destruction written as symbolic mythology of some sort? I get my Biblical Armageddons confused at times.