Attraction sans agenda.....

[stilltrucking]

I think I lost you,

This is a long thread , are you talking about Freud and Kandel. Freud did the best he could with the tools he had,

Kandel is a nuts and bolts kind of guy.
He is a Freud with more elegant tools.

he is a leading proponent of merging the long-divided fields of neuroscience and psychology. His book on the topic, "In Search of Memory," hits bookstores this month. Kandel, 76, talked with NEWSWEEK's Claudia Kalb.

[Marksman45]

e_dog: I think you're neglecting a certain point. That being, that most of what people regard as "human nature" is actually not nature at all, and thus by definition is actually aberration. (However, aberrant as it may be, it is so deeply ingrained into human behavior and culture that a human who divests himself of all of it is likely to be regarded as "inhuman" by others)

Lust and avarice fall under this category. They are both extensions of desire, which is an extension of self-importance/self-pity, which is not natural (and the root of the majority of human aberration)


Gravity, momentum, and magnetism are, of course, natural. Human behavior also includes natural equivalents of these phenomena.



truckin' : I've never gone in for Freud. Particularly his "symbolism" in dreams. There is no need to mine the unconscious for symbols that explain things about us that, unconsciously, we already know. Everyone actually has knowledge of their unconscious, and need only to switch their awareness from the rational mode to an abstract mode to assess anything unconscious. Such an assessment would be, of course, non-rational, but non-rationality does not preclude knowledge -- just logic.

[stilltrucking]

How could anyone be much for Freud. Just a dirty old Jew with a cocaine addiction. Freud is just a dam good joke these days.

Yeah I know Freud pretty well, he had a whole page in my college psychology text book devoted to him. I have been out of college over thirty years, at the time I left the only ones in the Psych department at the U of M was the honors program. My regular psch text book just mentioned him in passing. I look at Freud more as a cultrual anthropologist.

Symbolism in dreams? What he was saying is that the unconsious is the artist in us. He saw dreams as our sleeping mind the artist.

Ignore Freud at your risk. So mumch of the manipulation of the masses by the Nazis was based on his work. I am not are as healthy as you are... I do not mean that as mockery. I mean it as a statement of respect. I am one sick puppy. I am even certified as one by the Selective Service System. Freud is the archeologist of my soul. You were probably never the woman hater that I was.

And I say that you can not take man out of nature, and culture is our extro-bioloogical nature. Culture is our second womb. That shapes us from the moment we leave our mother's womb and become air breathers. I have high hopes for Zen. I think that is the point of it. To be pure awareness, to be totaly conscious.
Down deep in the nine pound universe inside our skulls are things undreamed of in our philosphies

Culture is not "out of nature" culture will save us or destroy us. Culture can change a hell of a lot faster than our biology.

Freud the victim of so many bad translations. Do you remember a movie called Forbiden Planet? Yeah right your father was not even born yet when that move came out in the 50's. Well anyway that movie had the best monster I have never seen. Made Allien look like Peter Rabit. Monsters from the Id.

Speaking of dreams the unconscious and the Id (which means It in english) I thought you migh like this bit.


There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy,

--Hamlet, Act I, v, 166-7

"Your philosophy" (where "your" does not refer to Horatio personally, but is used as an impersonal pronoun) is, in this case, what we would now call "science." (The word "science" did not come to be used in its modern sense till the nineteenth century.)

These two lines have been used for three and a half centuries to beat down what has been conceived to be scientific dogmatism and have usually been so used by mystics of one sort or another.

Nevertheless, scientists are perfectly aware of the truth of these lines--without it there would, in fact, be no need for scientific research--and search humbly for just those things that might as yet be undreamed of. It is the mystics who, for their part, do not search but think they "know"--by revelation, intuition, or other non-rational fashion--and it is they who are usually the arrogant ones.

-- Guide to Shakespeare
Isaac Asimov


http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1997/sha ... ained.html

Andre Gide:
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
I don't totaly agree with this statement. I know one person who has discovered the truth. It is his truth, I have known him all my life he is one of those people who everyone loves. He has something in his blue eyes that makes you trust him. He had a character flaw in that he was kind to a fault. He would lie to keep from hurting someone's feeling. Then as an adult he would lie to steal money. He was walking down the street one day in Washington DC, and his mind was in flux. He had just discovered the truth with in him which set him free. He found the strength for his No to mean no, and his yes to mean yes. He found his own truth, he was a man of his word from that day on.

Not to change the subject but we all been waiting for more Rustbelt stories. Maybe not we, but I sure have.

[Marksman45]

There are a few things about Freud that I'm fine with. I hear that he once said something to the tune of "The only abnormal human sexual behavior is the total lack of it." I tend to agree with that.

Culture is something that I'm often bothered by. Almost universally throughout this planet, culture ingrains in people the horrific problem of self-importance from birth. Just look at the vast majority of children; they aren't innocent, they're egotistic ruthlessly insensitive, because they are ignorant (in the sense that they lack knowledge) and thus are not prepared to deal with the baggage that is handed down to them.
But suppose that the culture *was* changed and self-importance was eliminated. This could feasibly be a good thing -- but still I balk at any kind of indoctrination of the unshaped young. I find it disagreeable on principle (I am the occult equivalent of a Rugged Individualist). And yet, if we don't indoctrinate our children in such matters as our language and rationality, how can we communicate to them the skills necessary for survival?
My brother had a baby not too long ago. A baby has, of course, an undifferentiated consciousness to begin with -- which is essentially what I, as a magician, am attempting to re-accomplish -- but they lack the information and experience necessary to actually do anything with it. They are completely lost in a universe of sensations that they don't know what to do with; they're completely helpless. I found this very unsettling.

And yes, I have seen Forbidden Planet. I've seen many, many movies that are older, as well.

I also like Asimov very much (and Hamlet, too). I don't knock science; science is a very, very useful. The only problem I see with science is an inaccurate perspective as to what exactly it is.

Science, and rationality in general, is only one facet of the capabilities of humans. We have many other tools at our disposal -- unfortunately, our culture raises us to believe that they don't exist. We are raised to be rational beings. Since these other modes of which humans are capable are completely non-rational, they cannot be comprehended from within a rational frame of reference, and so rational beings find it very easy to say that they don't exist (I'll also posit that rational beings, through rational disbelief, can sometimes have the power to shut down attempts to utilize these other modes). What occultists and mystics refer to as "magic" is simply these other sets of tools. (What *I* refer to magic is the whole, every single facet, including science. Any means used to accomplish an end is magic in my book.)


a tangentially related quote:

Science is a way of talking about the universe in words that bind it to a common reality. Magic is a method of talking to the universe in words that it cannot ignore. The two are rarely compatible.

Spoken by The Stranger in issue #1 of The Books of Magic by Neil Gaiman


Now, as for the concept of truth, that's not something that I bother with. It's not my style.

As for the Rustbelt, I've been re-writing the SHC vs. STAR stories and then writing the next episodes. I plan to post it here when the whole storyline is finished. In the mean time, if you check out my livejournal (the Wizard Exploded Cookbook link in my signature), you can find some there.

[stilltrucking]

I suppose maybe the kookiest idea freud ever had was the seduction of children.


I been wondering about a line I read somewhere,
Are you young enough for revolution? I have listened to a song called terroist by clay and doreen it reminds me that the word terrorist is from the French Revolution. great song have youu heard it. ???
I been wondering about a line I read somewhere,
Are you young enough for revolution.
http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6712
but still I balk at any kind of indoctrination of the unshaped young. I find it disagreeable on principle (I am the occult equivalent of a Rugged Individualist). And yet, if we don't indoctrinate our children in such matters as our language and rationality, how can we communicate to them the skills necessary for survival?



But I can't figure is how come I ain't rich. I tell you when that will be the day, when third grade student driver's program is called Zen Driving.

Glad to hear the the rustbelt is going well.

We got a hell of long way to go as a species, all I got hope in is the young, and they seem to kill themselves so abundantly in car crashes it makes me wonder?

I been wondering about a line I read somewhere,
Are you young enough for revolution. I have listened to a

[stilltrucking]

speaking of old movies I want to see Modern Times and Metropolis.

Hester I suppose what iis even worse than an attraction with agenda is an unwanted attraction. Poor jamelah.

[Marksman45]

Oooh, Metropolis has some golden moments (the "Moloch" sequence is one of my favorite film sequences evah). A large portion of the film is lost, though.

[stilltrucking]

e-dog posted a link to Metropolis but I hve not been able to download it yet.

http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6621

That idea of monsters from the ID fascinates me. It is so true I think. You talked about the evils of culture and it is true. The ID is just a bad translation from the German. It is just what we are at the moment of birth. Undifferentiated consciusness I think you called it. Not to get Freudian on you but the problem is repression.

I like your attitude towards the truth. Truth seekers give me the squirms. But there is a different truth I am after. A more mundane definition. I can only illustrate it by an example. I have a dear friend who is one of those people who everybody likes. He just naturally atracts people. He is also very kind, so kind he would lie to people rather than say no to a request for his time. As he grew older he started to lie to take advantage of people. Then when he was in his thirties he had an epiphany. He found the courage to be truthful. It was his truth, I suppose you might call it ethics. He is still kind to a fault and people still trust him but he no longer takes advantage of their trust.

Jesus H christ mars I am old enough to be your grandpa, you amaze me, all you young ones here. You give me hope.

I am so much younger than I used to be. I owe e-dog an apology, it just dawned on me that he is a lot younger than I thought he was. I did not mean to mock his innocence. He knows more about philosophy than i will ever know. The child is teacher to the man.

[e_dog]

who you callin' a child?

i'm as old as the universe.

[stilltrucking]

I know nothing e-dog,
No Plato, No Hegel, No Kant,
A little Nietzsche, Some Freud.
A bit of Walter Kaufmann.
A lot of Greek and Roman Histories.
A speck of Husserl, I am a phenomenologist want to be with a Very spotty education.
Barely ltterate. I go up against you and I try not to pose.

thanks,

[Marksman45]

who you callin' a child?

i'm as old as the universe.

geezer

[e_dog]

Monsters from the Id!

Forbidden Planet, the flick was on Turner Classic Movies tonite. what a trip!

Thanks for the reference, stilltruckin'.

[jimboloco]

Does he remind you of StillBlooming?

Is this possible?
Is an attraction without an agenda a mystical thing?
Or is that an agenda in itself?....

[e_dog]

there's actually a book called ... Monsters from the Id!

by a fella by the name of Jones, described in the bio blurb as a cultural critic.

they say you can't judge a book by its cover, which is true, but you can usually judge a book by its inside cover flap, if it has one. this one made me want to not read the book, after an initial excitment.

this guy, assuming the editors got it right, seems to be a counter-Freud, arguing that the fascination with monsters from Frankenstein and Dracula to Aliens in Western popular culture is all ultimately about sexuality. sounds psychoanalytic, eh? the catch, the moral is (and yes, there's a moral) that we need to repudiate the sexual revolution and acknowledge the importance of objective morality (!) because otherwise, the "moral order" will reassert itself in the form of avenging monsters in the individual psyche and collective representations of culture.

apparently, what led to Frankenstein was an alleged transformation in sexual mores in revolutionary France. and Alien is (and this obsrvation is truly brilliant) really a screenplay about abortion (in the episode where Ripley gets knocked up? or was he interpreting the ordinary birth of the Aliens from their hosts chests (including males) as like . . . birth?) not clear what the author's moral stance of that is supposed to lead to (since the cover flap description didn't say), but its a great test case for Christians, no? SO, you're opposed to abortion even in cases of incest and rape? what if a human is impreganted by an extraterrestrial?

the real problem is that, again judging from the summary without reading the book, is that this guy is totally distorting Freud. these sound like more like monsters from the superego not the id.

you ever see this book, stilltru?

if so what thinks you 'bout it?

[MrGuilty]

Have not seen the book

is that this guy is totally distorting Freud

It beats me e-dog

On a personal note, I can't help thinking about Anne Francis every time Someone mentions that movie. So there may be something to it?

"Wither Pyschoanalysis in The Digital Age. Turkle et al MIT
She makes an interesting arguement for a simpler more eloquent analysis for slips of the tongue than Freud does, --imo You probably know more about Minsky's meat machine than I do.

Freud not so much a medical doctor for me as an archeologist of my soul. Maybe the most difficult Freud book for me to read was Beyond The Pleasure Principle. He should be considered more of a cultural anthropogist. I am full of opinions and so few oriffices. Probably why I drivel so much. Freud is interesting. Haveyou heard of a book by Norman O. Brown's Life Against Death?

I liked this bit from the preface:

In 1953 I turned to a deep study of Freud, feeling the need to reappraise the nature and destiny of man. Inheriting from the Protestant tradition a conscience which insisted that intellectual workd should be directed toward the relief of man's estate.

Did I answer your question or just ramble ?
Not a pop quiz just a rhetorical.

mars wrote

Culture is something that I'm often bothered by. Almost universally throughout this planet, culture ingrains in people the horrific problem of self-importance from birth. Just look at the vast majority of children; they aren't innocent, they're egotistic ruthlessly insensitive, because they are ignorant (in the sense that they lack knowledge) and thus are not prepared to deal with the baggage that is handed down to them.

Well you sound pretty healthy to me mars
Sounds like you got a grip on that baggage.
I am about forty years behind you

where did you go mars?