Botnia in Fray Bentos, asamblea in Gualeguaychú

Go ahead. Talk about it.
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whimsicaldeb
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Post by whimsicaldeb » May 2nd, 2006, 4:54 pm

...other newspapers or sites and maybe some translations later - Arcadia

So far, I've found these two ...
http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=10363

Thousands Protest on Argentina's Border with Uruguay Over Wood-Pulp Plants

May 01, 2006 — By Oscar Serrat, Associated Press

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Tens of thousands of demonstrators massed Sunday on the international bridge connecting Argentina with Uruguay, protesting Uruguay's plans to finish two wood-pulp mills that opponents fear will pollute the environment.

Argentine gendarmes kept the protesters, led by environmentalists, from reaching the border demarcation on the towering bridge span. The group raised Argentine and Uruguayan flags during the peaceful protest and sang both countries' national anthems.

The group, estimated by authorities to number nearly 40,000, marched from the Argentine city of Gualeguaychu, just across the Uruguay River from Fray Bentos, Uruguay, near where the two large pulp mills are being built.

Uruguayan officials have rejected protesters' charges the plants would heavily pollute the border region. They say the plants will meet international environmental standards, create 600 jobs and bring in millions of dollars (euros) annually to the small South American country still recovering from a deep 2002 economic crisis.

Argentine President Nestor Kirchner is planning to hold a cabinet meeting in Gualeguaychu on Friday to discuss the feud that has tarnished his country's historically close ties with Uruguay.

Twice this year Kirchner has called on Uruguayan President Tabare Vazquez to halt construction for 90 days on the two pulp plants, demanding an environmental impact study.

He has also said he was prepared to take the long-running feud to the International Court of Justice at The Hague if a solution is not reached.

One plant would be operated by Oy Metsa-Botnia AB consortium, made up of a group of Finnish investors. The other is being built by Spain's Grupo Empresarial ENCE. The two plants constitute the largest ever foreign investment project in Uruguay at US$1.8 billion (euro1.5 billion).

Source: Associated Press
and this is a BBC headline from last week:

Argentines protest against mills
By Daniel Schweimler
BBC News, Buenos Aires

Image
Activists on the bridge at Gualeguaychu which connects Argentina and Uruguay

The dispute between the two countries has lasted over a year
Tens of thousands gathered in the Argentine town of Gualeguaychu for what organisers called the country's biggest-ever environmentalist rally.

(cutting)

They have been blockading the bridge for several months and the Argentine government is taking the case to the International Court of Justice in the Hague, accusing Uruguay of breaking a treaty governing the protection of the waters.

full article continues here ...

~~~

Sounds like it's going to the Hague for resolution...

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Arcadia
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Post by Arcadia » May 3rd, 2006, 2:12 pm

yeah, La Haya at the end...
and how difficult consenso is in our countries...
I also read somewhere that the contratos with the empresas (signed by other governments) have a lot of clausulas that now make difficult to take other road ...

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Post by whimsicaldeb » May 3rd, 2006, 4:58 pm

I also read somewhere that the contratos with the empresas (signed by other governments) have a lot of clausulas that now make difficult to take other road ...

Yes...

Who's driving the bus (as they say)

Companies always say they are following the environmental laws, because most of the time those laws are weak. These laws do the bare minimum of protection ~ so of course the companies say “oh yes, we’ll comply with that!” But no more, even when they know better.

That environmental report is a must before work begins.

Good environmental laws varies country by country, and in the USA, state by state. California has very strict environmental laws, but equally, we currently have a highly motivated politician in our state determined to see that all these hard working environment laws that have helped our state (and country) recover over the years be over thrown – and his name is Pombo. ~ugh~

Clean water is a necessity and once a river or anything is polluted it’s much harder to clean it up and get it back to health then it is to prevent it in the first place. I hope this fact is one of many realized when this issue moves The Hague, and perhaps this third party will be exactly what both countries need - can restore balanced perspectives and jobs, while protecting the environment. It is possible, just takes a bit more time, and of course, money. But in the long run the money spent now to protect the river will be substancially less then it would take to clean it up after the fact.

so ...

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Post by Arcadia » May 6th, 2006, 5:24 pm

mmm... pombo was hard to read..!

Mr. K and looots of governors and intendentes were in an acto yesterday in Gualeguaychu. Sometimes Mr. K has a peculiar sense about how to generation consenso...

Here what Argentina-Greenpeace thinks about the president discourse:


http://www.lacapital.com.ar/2006/05/06/ ... 1351.shtml


note: we use the word papelón when somebody does something shameful, objectable and or risible. Literal is a big papel...

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Post by Arcadia » May 13th, 2006, 10:08 am

well, did you want to see what happened yesterday?:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpai ... 05-13.html

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Post by whimsicaldeb » May 13th, 2006, 11:18 am

Image

Greenpeace: Carnival Queen reveals naked truth about pulp pollution to politicians

I think it's great ... Whatever works, works!

Your article had better information; the waste and the double standard that's at the heart of it all...
Orginal:
El Presidente tomó la defensa del medio ambiente como línea para criticar a la Europa desarrollada respecto del sur en vías de desarrollo, un concepto que había comenzado a utilizar tiempo atrás en ocasión de otros encuentros internacionales pero que intensificó a partir del conflicto por las papeleras. Básicamente, su argumento consiste en que los países industrializados utilizan un “doble estándar” en materia ambiental, trasladando a los países pobres la contaminación que no desean en sus territorios.


english translation:
The President took the defense from the medio.ambiente like line to criticize to developed Europe respect to the developing south, a concept that had begun to back use time in occasion of other international encounter but that it intensified from the conflict by the wastebaskets. Basically, its argument consists of which the industrialized countries use a "double standard" in environmental matter, transferring to the poor countries the contamination that do not wish in their territories.
Whatever it takes ...

(sure wish I had a body like that!)
:D

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Post by Arcadia » May 14th, 2006, 9:51 am

oh..., sometimes we can be so really, really cruel with ourselves! (but it's an so oolllldd thing that it seems it doesn't bother anyone anymore). See today's Rudy & Paz graphic humor in pagina/12:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/principal/index.html

Text translation:

* In the Viena Summit each country showed its place in the world.

* Venezuela shows the petrol.... Bolivia, the gas.... Brasil, the industry and Argentine shows the ass...


(I have to say that I think that maybe world maps are upside down)

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Post by stilltrucking » May 14th, 2006, 11:47 am

"Perhaps the only true dignity of man is his capacity to despise himself. (George Santayana (1863-1952), US philosopher, poet. Spinoza's "


http://www.poemhunter.com/quotations/fa ... 0Santayana

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Post by Arcadia » May 17th, 2006, 10:18 am

s/t: interesting your philosopher, curious name it reminded me pranayana, hinayana, mahayana...

See:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpai ... 05-17.html


She said, she said... (the vice president of Botnia)

* Uruguay didn't ask (officially) to stop the construction.
* The planta in Uruguay will be better than the ones we have in Finland, because the last one was built in 2001 and technology have advanced till then.
* In a month the 50% of the construction will be finished. We want to inaugurar the planta in 2007.
* We don't have dioxines in our efluents. There are clorate originated residuos (Aox) but there aren't dioxines and they are minimun.
* There are no differences betwen the ECF and the TCF methods.
* Greenpeace say that TCF is better because they have studios from the eighties and they don't want anything new.
* More studies can be done while the planta is already working. There are 2000 people working, the idea to stop the construction is not possible.

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Post by Arcadia » May 18th, 2006, 11:46 pm

the finnish guy that designed the Botnia papelera in Fray Bentos said that they want to build another bigger one in Corrientes or Misiones. He also said "I have experience, I know this moment will pass, people will forget"...

So, the voice of the experience has talked and it seems there are no more things to do (sure, it has no application for all the people...)

The escraches to the Consulados continue.

Maybe computers or telepatia are partial solutions, who knows.

See:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpai ... 05-18.html

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2006, 12:51 am

"I have experience, I know this moment will pass, people will forget"...
That may be true but is is very sad.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana (1863 - 1952),


"... Biological tests show TCF EFFLUENTS LESS TOXIC... "1
"... Our tests show ... the TCF methods at our mills produce the least toxic effluents... "1
"... the TCF effluents in all the tests have shown lower TEF values compared to the ECF effluent.... The only difference between ECF and TCF production is the bleaching process ..."2
are not supported by the data.
http://www.aet.org/reports/technical/ecf2.html#TOXICITY

The science is way over my head maybe it makes some sense to you. I don’t know anything about Santayana. I just have a book of quotations that I browse a lot.
Remarkably, Santayana achieved this stature in American thought without being an American citizen. He proudly retained his Spanish citizenship throughout his life.

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Post by Arcadia » May 20th, 2006, 9:57 am

something like a brief story of a contamination/icon in our country: the Riachuelo and its links to Gualeguaychu .
I'll read the full article later.

See:

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/suple ... 05-20.html

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Post by whimsicaldeb » May 20th, 2006, 9:28 pm

Arcadia, could you explain the medio.ambiente to me? Thank you.

Interesting article.

This part is sad ...
Orginal:
5 Socialmente no hay vergüenza. El 55 por ciento de los habitantes de la cuenca carecen de cloaca, lo que lleva sus desperdicios –por vía directa o por perversa ósmosis a través de pozos ciegos– al Matanza-Riachuelo. Y donde hay cloacas, la mayoría de los 14 municipios del conurbano que se asientan en sus márgenes descargan “legalmente” sus contenidos al río.

English Translation:
5 Socially there is no shame. The 55 percent of the inhabitants of the river basin lacks sewer, which takes its wastes - by direct route or perverse osmosis through blind drains to the Slaughter-Brook. And where there are sewers, most of the 14 municipalities of the conurbano that are based in their margins they unload "legally" its contents to the river.

And this part is not only accurate, it's quite progressive, ahead of it's time ... none the less, highly accurate.
Original:
Se nos propone en estos tiempos la instauración de una nueva era en la Argentina, en la que el ambiente es cuestión de Estado. Siguiendo a Martínez Alier, si se considera la contaminación (como a la desertificación, la extinción de especies y otros diversos problemas ambientales) una consecuencia, habrá que poner el acento en las causas, bajo las cuales subyace aquello de la modalidad de uso de los recursos naturales.

Y como el largo plazo también empieza hoy (como dijo algún célebre economista), una política de Estado debe otear el horizonte y observar qué decisiones actuales engendrarán los problemas ambientales futuros. La política correcta, dicen, es la que impide los problemas, no la que los soluciona.


English translation (emphasis added by me):
The restoration of a new era in the Argentina sets out to us in these times, in which the atmosphere is question of State. Following Martinez Alier, if the contamination is considered (like a the desertificación, the extinction of species and other diverse environmental problems) a consequence, it will be necessary to put the accent in the causes, under which that of the modality of use of the natural resources sublies.

And as the long term also begins today (as some famous economist said), a policy of State must otear the horizon and observe what present decisions will generate the future environmental problems. The correct policy, says, is the one that prevents the problems, not the one that solves them.
Well said.

The Brook and Argentina - it's a starting place for a prominent showing of how this new era of understanding can work, and hopefully expand. Not just solving the problems, but working preventively all at the same time.

I hope it goes that way. We'll see.

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Post by Arcadia » May 21st, 2006, 5:01 pm

medio point ambiente? or medio ambiente? medio ambiente it's not half ambiente, it's something like environment.
good that you read the article whimsicaldeb, I didn't yet!
saludos!

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Post by whimsicaldeb » May 21st, 2006, 6:21 pm

Here's the section, orginal and then babel fish english tranlation (emphasis added by me):
Orginal:
En muchos ámbitos, pero en el medio ambiente parece que mucho más, la Argentina se empeña en demostrar que el tiempo no pasa, que determinadas situaciones se cristalizan, mutan en estatuas vivientes.

En estos días, en que asistimos impávidos y esperanzados a la formal declaración de guerra a la contaminación y la instauración de una era en la que el medio ambiente es política de Estado, es difícil eludir aquella cita que sostenía que la historia se repite como caricatura y resulta casi antipático revelar que ésta simula ser una historia antes vista. Una historia en la que el Riachuelo es un icono: desentrañar por qué no se limpió (o no se limpia) esa cloaca consentida puede permitir entender por qué el medio ambiente nunca fue (¿será?) política de Estado.

English translation:
In many scopes, but in medio.ambiente seems that much more, Argentina pawns on to demonstrate that the time does not happen, that certain situations are crystallized, mutan in living statues.

In these days, in which we attended fearless and esperanzados the formal declaration of war to the contamination and the restoration of an era in which the medio.ambient is political of State, is difficult to elude that appointment that maintained that history repeats as cartoon and turns out almost unpleasant to reveal that this one before simulates to be a history Vista. A history in which the Brook is an icon: to unravel why that allowed sewer was not cleaned (or not cleans) can allow to understand why the medio.ambiente never was (it will be) policy of State.
el medio ambiente is being translated as medio.ambiente in english ... but that translation doesn't help me much.

Thank you.

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