Where have all the poets gone?

[knip]

I'm not sure today's trends are based on what you are saying - men being threatened by women's growing independence and power. I'm also not sure if thin women have never been in vogue, but I cannot claim to have read anything on this or studied it.

I raised my daughter since she could talk to know what foods were fatenning and which were not. This was from the perspective of trying to teach her to live healthily, nothing else. She took up figure skating at around 6 years of age, and she takes her diet quite seriously now still, at the age of 15. It is very hard for a boy to pick you up over his head, on skates and moving, if the girl doesn't make an attempt to make it easier for him by not being heavy. At 15, she is 4'9", 72 pounds, and has no boobs. I don't think that's the diet; she always was petite.

Of course this has very little to do with your post; I'm just babbling. True that men, in general, have a very narrow view of what is beautiful and what is not. But I don't know what the percentage would be - maybe about 33%? Personally, I am attracted by smell - it has something to do with phermones, or something like that.

I wouldn't call Beyonce a thin woman, though. Spears neither. Celine Dion, now that's a thin woman.

[abcrystcats]

OH, and Dave the Dov ... I agree that there are some women who are into the "beefcake" thing, but they are in the minority.

The real problem for men is the woman's pursuit of money and status via her mate. But ... I also think that the more beautiful the woman you aspire to, the more you're going to run into status-seeking types. I've seen it again and again, and men just don't get it. Goodlooking women (with self-esteem) know they can get moneyed men, so they ignore Mr. Ordinary and go for the big game. Or they demand that the man pay for everything and buy them gifts on top of it all.

I feel sorry for men. I think the intense focus on looks, sex, power and wealth make it tough on both sexes. The materialism in this culture is totally overwhelming and we are all simultaneously victims and perpetrators of the trend. It's tough to try to rid yourself of the prejudices imposed on you by television and magazines and see members of the opposite sex as human beings, first and foremost.

[Zlatko Waterman]

"enduring beauty"?


One of my faves of all time has been Lauren Bacall (Betty Joan Perske) shown here at age 75 with another icon of the movies, Kirk Douglas ( Issur Danielovitch Demsky)at age 82:


http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0167423/ ... ey=0167423



Do you suppose names like Britney Spears or Minnie Driver have anything to do with current "iconization"?

Would the two pictured here in the 1999 film "Diamonds" have fared as well with their real names?


Sorry to be such an old fuddy-duddy, but I'm still in love with the actress in the second bookstore Bogart visits in "The Big Sleep."


--Z

[perezoso]

Pragmatic solutions for the hot guys 'n kewl chicks of pop culture:



Inshallah

[Dave The Dov]

ZW, Each generation going to have their favorites no matter what. ac, you're always have those women who pursue after guys like that just it will be the same for the men as well. I never feel sorry for them I just see it as a fact of life.
_________________
Mercedes 230

[abcrystcats]

Knip, I didn't say thin women had NEVER been in vogue, but if you look at the whole history of beauty in the world, the times thin women have led the parade have been few and far between.

I can't believe what you said about Britney and Beyonce -- that's your warped perception talking! Knip, they are thin women! Perhaps not anorexically thin, but thin nevertheless.

As for men picking up women while skating ... why is that necessary?

Do you have any sons, Knip? Did you raise them with the same emphasis on calories? If you do have sons, I doubt very much that you'd hammer the point home with them as you did with your daughter. Please don't take this as an attack ... it is simply part of the whole cultural trend.

I was going to say that "thin" is a very damaging social trend for women, but to be fair, there have ALWAYS been demanding standards for beauty -- whether those standards reflected thinness or fatness or somewhere in between. "Health"has little to do with it. Women used to remove their lower ribs surgically to conform to the ideal of a thin waist. Pacific Island women gorged themselves to attain the ideal state of plumpness. Women today get liposuctions, boob jobs, face lifts and lots of other scary surgeries. Many suffer as a result.

The only thing I can tell you is that "thin", as defined by current standards, is not healthy. There is no correlation between thinness and long life. In fact, the Framingham studies showed that the longest lived people are those that do carry around a bit of extra fat. There is, however, a correlation between strenuous dieting, erratic patterns of weight gain and loss, and early death.

I suppose it would be easy to whine and say that life would be better for women if the standards of beauty were more like those of the fifties or forties, but beauty standards have always been intended to apply to only a select few lucky women who conform to it. It wouldn't be beauty if we could all aspire to it.

In addition to my earlier theory about women's emancipation and weight, let me add one more: We live in a society where fattening food is abundant. It's far easier to be heavy in this culture than thin. Since beauty standards are always set up to exclude the majority, it makes good sense that thin is in.

I think both theories have merit and probably apply to why we admire thinness -- in women. Men have rarely had CLEARLY defined beauty standards to live up to. As stated in a previous post, men have other pressures.

[knip]

yes, i have a son, and he was raised the same...i'm not saying i forced my kids to eat lightly; i made sure they understood all aspects of healthy living (not that i'm a shining example - want my kids to be better than me, though)

as for the figure skating question, it's necessary because it's part of the sport...don't really see your point on that one

men do damaging things to achieve what they perceive of as male beauty - steroids are a good example of this

you said thin as defined by current standards is not healthy - i agree...you also told me britney and beyonce are thin...i don't think their body size/type is going to have a negative impact on their quantity of life

[hester_prynne]

Missed connections, due to reasons beyond you.
There is a longing in this that I can't describe, but it can be a very demanding, and time wasting emotion.
"Everyone likes her and types like her. I wasn't born that way"
Don't fall into this trap. It's crap. Believe me, I know it from experience.
Have a little pity for britney. In a couple more years she'll be out of the limelight in the reject light.
You know this. It's the way it goes.
The requirements for popularity will change then.
Stick to your own limelight Lucy dear. Don't shine it on temporary causes.....
When those "not good as" thoughts come, do your work. Tell yourself that it's not true, that you are good enough, even better!
Work with your conscious until you really believe it. Only you can do that, it's up to you. No one can deal with that longing but you.
You've got a beautiful light Lucy. Take it out on the road with you.
Talk to the boys, shine your light, and be yourself. Believe in yourself. Point your limelight to your own authenticity. Some won't be interested. They'll have their reasons. It won't be about you.
Self belief and trust are the ingredients for real happiness.
The rest is gravy.
Smoochies,
H

[perezoso]

There may be Darwinian reasons for the high numbers of plump. overweight, obese, or pleasingly Rubenesque American females. I think a gal with a few extra pounds can be kinda sexy; what she lacks in some areas (or rather what she perhaps has too much of), she makes up for in others. The children may feel safer or more comfortable with a nurturing chubby primate mother; and the prospective alpha male may be drawn to the earth mother type with an ample womb that will shield his seed and carry forth the gene pool. Though we may find the Rosie O'Donnell look somewhat unappealing, the anorexic crack ho look is also somewhat unsatisfying. A Cybil Shepard--sort of fleshy ans curvaceous but not too chubby--yes that is femme beau-tee.

[abcrystcats]

With anybody who appears in a two-dimensional medium it's very hard to tell exactly how thin they are. I venture to say that Britney and Beyonce are probably thinner than they appear to be to you. I can't make predictions about how their thinness is going to affect their lifespans. Since they're both rich, I assume that it might not.

Figure skating question: sorry. I got close to calling it sexist, but that is an extreme point of view I try to avoid. Life is Sexist.

I can't see the comparison between the tiny minority of men who use steroids and the much larger percentage of women who indulge in cosmetic surgeries and diet and exercise obsessively to attain an ideal of slimness. There is absolutely no comparison between male beauty pressures and female beauty pressures. None whatsoever.

I do concede that men have it tough in certain areas, just not this one.

[abcrystcats]

Well, you do a lot of reading, Perez, therefore you have broader (no pun intended) views ...

[perezoso]

I doubt, however, Miss Abcrsyts, that my views and perspectives are half as broad as thine are. Have a nice day.

We might remember though that the success of pop culture icons only reflects the hordes' desired images; entertainment may be banal, but so are the people buying the product.

[abcrystcats]

cute, Perez, unsubtle but cute. I am glad to see you got my message this morning.

[perezoso]

Yes, but unfortunately I cannot comply with your, hmmm, somewhat scandalous request. You are, alas, not my type.

[abcrystcats]

Thanks! My sense of humor is fully restored ...