good thing that obrador "didn't" win the election
or else,
Bush 'd haveta do some democracy-enforcing regime change down in Mejico.
!viva la revolucion surrealista!
hezbollah just found out. . .
-
gypsyjoker
- Posts: 1458
- Joined: May 26th, 2005, 9:01 am
- Location: stilltrucking's vanity
- Contact:
You are a funny guy e-dog.what does the Liberty ship have to do with anything here?
I admire Israel for its socialism. They may be waging war on innocent civilians but at least there are not in it for the god almighty dollar. This stiff necked people who the world has been trying to destroy and totally obliberate for over two thousand years. We wage wars for profit it seems. Ike;s smarter brother Milton Eisenhower president of Johns Hopkins University wrote that Military Industrial Complex speech for him.
Drunk again, it seems to help.
Free Rice
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
I have not the answers judih... but I'm happy you're safe. And I have faith in you.
jimbo, I'm listening to your link, country music and someone talking about the Vietnam war, then the opinions... auch, what kind of english did the talk???, I didn't understand them... I only understand the locutor... (then I 'll tell you if I understand you...!!!)
jimbo, I'm listening to your link, country music and someone talking about the Vietnam war, then the opinions... auch, what kind of english did the talk???, I didn't understand them... I only understand the locutor... (then I 'll tell you if I understand you...!!!)
ay que bueno
the locutor is rob lorei, the wmnf news director
it's like that with me, can understand spanish clearly spoken
well, at least they can't say it was pre-emptive
cause they had an excuse, er, i mean a rationale
it was the straw that broke the camel's back
three kidnapped soldiers, two by hezbollah
an one by hamas
and all three are nationally known,
it's an intense tribal situalion
and their massive air campaign throughout lebanon to destroy the infrastructure, particularly as connected to support chanels into the south and more intense there, now they are good and softened upso that the massed israeli soldiers can have the optimal advantage when invading
god ain't dead, man
the five year old girl is dead.
the locutor is rob lorei, the wmnf news director
it's like that with me, can understand spanish clearly spoken
well, at least they can't say it was pre-emptive
cause they had an excuse, er, i mean a rationale
it was the straw that broke the camel's back
three kidnapped soldiers, two by hezbollah
an one by hamas
and all three are nationally known,
it's an intense tribal situalion
and their massive air campaign throughout lebanon to destroy the infrastructure, particularly as connected to support chanels into the south and more intense there, now they are good and softened upso that the massed israeli soldiers can have the optimal advantage when invading
god ain't dead, man
the five year old girl is dead.
Last edited by jimboloco on July 22nd, 2006, 11:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
as you may know, there are criminal investigations ongoing in Italia investigating the CIA practice of kidnapping persons its suspects are "terrorists" and thru "extraordinary rendition" transporting them to torture chambers around the region for interrogation, then sometimes releaseing these people having discovered they got the wrong guy.
imagine for a thought experiment what the Israeli IDF's rationale for the present invasion would mean for that? apparently, according to the rationale of "self-defense," the World Cup champion nation would be justified in carrying out a massive bombing campaign against the U.S. infrastructure -- Reagan airport, bridges, etc. -- in an effort to bring the CIA to its knees?? obviously, that is a ridiculous, illegal, and immoral prospect, (aside from the fact that Italia lacks such capability) which demonstrates the illegality of the present operations against Lebanon.
One might object: but the CIA isn't a terrorist organizatoin like Hezbollah. This is true. The terrorist operations of the CIA are far more extensive globally than Hezbollah's terrorist operations. The CIA is more like Al Queda in this respect. No surprise, since Al Queda's in part an offshoot of the CIA.
One thing the warlike "diplomats" are right about: terrorism will not end until the organizations supporting it are dismantled. Only, they neglect to mention that the U.S. military-industrial complex is one of the primary examples of institutions supporting and promoting terror.
imagine for a thought experiment what the Israeli IDF's rationale for the present invasion would mean for that? apparently, according to the rationale of "self-defense," the World Cup champion nation would be justified in carrying out a massive bombing campaign against the U.S. infrastructure -- Reagan airport, bridges, etc. -- in an effort to bring the CIA to its knees?? obviously, that is a ridiculous, illegal, and immoral prospect, (aside from the fact that Italia lacks such capability) which demonstrates the illegality of the present operations against Lebanon.
One might object: but the CIA isn't a terrorist organizatoin like Hezbollah. This is true. The terrorist operations of the CIA are far more extensive globally than Hezbollah's terrorist operations. The CIA is more like Al Queda in this respect. No surprise, since Al Queda's in part an offshoot of the CIA.
One thing the warlike "diplomats" are right about: terrorism will not end until the organizations supporting it are dismantled. Only, they neglect to mention that the U.S. military-industrial complex is one of the primary examples of institutions supporting and promoting terror.
Another Sunday in Beirut…this is an orac·u·lar blog from a journalist who witnessed a violent demonstration by fanatics, it shows the intensity of that element, but also that the lebanese military was trying to control them
the cia is scary
george bush sr's provenance
and it's sure that the rabid intensity will not die
it will only inflame
the still small voice of a child spake to me
with the bombs falling
the still small voice of a child in a hut in in the jungle
with the bombs falling
the still small voice of a child in a village in thhe plain of jars in laos
with the bombs falling
the stiill smal voice of a child in the mountains where the montagnards lived and the bombs fell in clusters
the still small voice of a child spake to me
and i touched the edge of a dream,,,,,,,,,,,,,
the cia is scary
george bush sr's provenance
and it's sure that the rabid intensity will not die
it will only inflame
the still small voice of a child spake to me
with the bombs falling
the still small voice of a child in a hut in in the jungle
with the bombs falling
the still small voice of a child in a village in thhe plain of jars in laos
with the bombs falling
the stiill smal voice of a child in the mountains where the montagnards lived and the bombs fell in clusters
the still small voice of a child spake to me
and i touched the edge of a dream,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 21/1432212
abridged version of interview from Democracy Now, Friday July 21, 2006.
AMY GOODMAN: When did you join the Israeli military?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: Just like all the other Israeli boys, when they finish their high school. It was the year of 1991, and I finished my pilot course in the end of 1993. I served about ten years as a rescue pilot flying Bell 212 and Black Hawk helicopters.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did you serve?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: Most of the mission I did were rescue and also transport of commando forces into Lebanon and into the Occupied Territories.
In the year of 2003, I initiated and found a group of Air Force pilots, including colonels and brigadier generals, all of them from all of the most respectable squadrons in the Israeli Air Force. Attack helicopter pilots, squadron commanders, F-16 pilots, F-15 pilots, all of them join me to this petition that I have here with me, and we published this letter, which called a “Pilots’ Letter,” in which we declared our refusal to take part in these attacks on civilians.
And since then, we were all dismissed from the Air Force, and many of us became peace activists, anti-occupation activists, and some of us formed with other soldiers, other refusers from the Israeli Army, the group named Combatants for Peace, which is a group of Israeli former militants and Palestinian former militants who came together to the conclusion that there is no military solution to the violence and the conflict in the Middle East.
And my message here today is that if you will let the Israeli government to solve this conflict, it means the destruction of my country and the destruction of the neighbors’ countries.
JUAN GONZALEZ: What was it that brought you to that conclusion during your time of service? What were the particular incidents or situations that you can confronted that led you to conclude that?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: [...]
And that process brought us to the situation where we finally understood that we are just part of this circle of mutual violence, circle of revenge. And once you understand that you are part of this circle, you understand that there is no much difference between the terror that you are suffering from and the terror that you are involved in. And it’s a very, very hard thing for one to understand and to go through. It involved personal crisis sometimes, and it involved with a lot of things that now connecting to each other, not just in the issues in the Middle East, but all over the world.
[...] I’m talking out of love to my country and my family. I’m going to be back there in a few days. I have friends that are now sitting in shelters and all this kind of stuff. I know the suffering also of my people. But we believe that it’s our obligation now to shout this and to call the world: if you care about my country, if you care about the Israeli people, as well the Palestinian and the Lebanese who are now suffering, you must put massive pressure on the Israeli government, and putting pressure on the Israeli government means putting pressure on your government.
AMY GOODMAN: Uri Zaki is also with us, chair of Young Meretz in Israel, the Meretz Peace Party. What is your position on what Israel is currently doing in Lebanon and Gaza?
URI ZAKI: First of all, hello. I must say that unlike Yonatan, I differentiate between what’s going on in the Occupied Territories, meaning Gaza and the West Bank -- and I’m saying Gaza, even though we withdraw from Gaza -- and what’s going on in Lebanon. The way I see it, the peace camp, the camp that I’m a member of, proud member of, has been always advocating towards a withdrawal to international recognized borders by Israel.
And that’s what we did in Lebanon. We withdrew exactly by meter by meter, centimeter by centimeter, to the borders as were declared by the United Nations. Now, once these borders were determined, any violation of Israeli sovereignty beyond these borders, like Hezbollah did, meaning attacking Israel with rockets and killing some of our soldiers, kidnapping others, that has to be answered by force, because that was a violation of our sovereignty beyond our border.
YONATAN SHAPIRA: I have a question to Uri. The conclusion that you made, that that has to be answered by force, who said that? Who said that by force we are going to save our country? Maybe it’s some conception that you were raised upon and all those values and all those principles that we got during our education, in processing Israel. I don't believe and I think the rest of the world, the enlightened world, do not believe that there is a solution that will come out by using force and using the Israeli military. And just think about what the Israeli government is saying now. They refuse for ceasefire. They refuse to stop the war. And missiles are falling on our families in Haifa, and at the same time, our leaders refuse to stop the war.
URI ZAKI: Yonatan, I respect your act of refusal, even though I don't necessarily support it. But I think because of your courageous act, you cease to differentiate between two different realities, the reality of occupation and the reality of a country defending itself. I think Hezbollah and also the Lebanese state, the Lebanon state -- I mean, the Lebanese government did not try to prevent Hezbollah from standing on our border. I think Hezbollah is a terrorist group, a similar group to many groups that are now threatening the Western world.
We did nothing to provoke the Hezbollah from attacking us. I think it’s a different story than the Occupied Territories, which the activities there were the reason for your act of refusal. I think it’s a different story, and I think, yes, once a country is being attacked on its borders, I don't see any other thing we can do. By the way, in a way, we tried another way. Israel -- it’s not the first time that the Hezbollah attacked over our northern borders. The two past times that it was done, there was no reaction, no military reaction. And indeed for the third time, if we would have been silent right now, in a few months they would do another violent act, maybe more viciously.
AMY GOODMAN: Yonatan Shapira.
YONATAN SHAPIRA: [...]
And tell me, please, why do you think that killing innocent Lebanese, by now 330, most of them civilians, children and women, why do you think that killing these innocent people will bring you some kind of security? It’s the same kind of logic to think that if you kill Lebanese civilians, you will force them to bring Israel security or to press the Hezbollah is the same kind of logic that maybe Nastrallah is trying to shoot Israeli cities and forcing, by that, the Israeli people to convince the Israeli government to stop this war. It’s the same kind of insanity.
And although -- just last important thing -- although it’s not the same situation in Gaza and in the Occupied Territories and in Lebanon, the same insanity and the same cruelty and the same stupidity of our leaders is now being on the spot. This is the danger, because the leaders of this country now and in the Lieutenant General, General Halutz, who is now leading this crazy war, will not hesitate to get Syria and to get Iran involved, and this is my greatest fear.
[...]
abridged version of interview from Democracy Now, Friday July 21, 2006.
AMY GOODMAN: When did you join the Israeli military?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: Just like all the other Israeli boys, when they finish their high school. It was the year of 1991, and I finished my pilot course in the end of 1993. I served about ten years as a rescue pilot flying Bell 212 and Black Hawk helicopters.
AMY GOODMAN: And where did you serve?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: Most of the mission I did were rescue and also transport of commando forces into Lebanon and into the Occupied Territories.
In the year of 2003, I initiated and found a group of Air Force pilots, including colonels and brigadier generals, all of them from all of the most respectable squadrons in the Israeli Air Force. Attack helicopter pilots, squadron commanders, F-16 pilots, F-15 pilots, all of them join me to this petition that I have here with me, and we published this letter, which called a “Pilots’ Letter,” in which we declared our refusal to take part in these attacks on civilians.
And since then, we were all dismissed from the Air Force, and many of us became peace activists, anti-occupation activists, and some of us formed with other soldiers, other refusers from the Israeli Army, the group named Combatants for Peace, which is a group of Israeli former militants and Palestinian former militants who came together to the conclusion that there is no military solution to the violence and the conflict in the Middle East.
And my message here today is that if you will let the Israeli government to solve this conflict, it means the destruction of my country and the destruction of the neighbors’ countries.
JUAN GONZALEZ: What was it that brought you to that conclusion during your time of service? What were the particular incidents or situations that you can confronted that led you to conclude that?
YONATAN SHAPIRA: [...]
And that process brought us to the situation where we finally understood that we are just part of this circle of mutual violence, circle of revenge. And once you understand that you are part of this circle, you understand that there is no much difference between the terror that you are suffering from and the terror that you are involved in. And it’s a very, very hard thing for one to understand and to go through. It involved personal crisis sometimes, and it involved with a lot of things that now connecting to each other, not just in the issues in the Middle East, but all over the world.
[...] I’m talking out of love to my country and my family. I’m going to be back there in a few days. I have friends that are now sitting in shelters and all this kind of stuff. I know the suffering also of my people. But we believe that it’s our obligation now to shout this and to call the world: if you care about my country, if you care about the Israeli people, as well the Palestinian and the Lebanese who are now suffering, you must put massive pressure on the Israeli government, and putting pressure on the Israeli government means putting pressure on your government.
AMY GOODMAN: Uri Zaki is also with us, chair of Young Meretz in Israel, the Meretz Peace Party. What is your position on what Israel is currently doing in Lebanon and Gaza?
URI ZAKI: First of all, hello. I must say that unlike Yonatan, I differentiate between what’s going on in the Occupied Territories, meaning Gaza and the West Bank -- and I’m saying Gaza, even though we withdraw from Gaza -- and what’s going on in Lebanon. The way I see it, the peace camp, the camp that I’m a member of, proud member of, has been always advocating towards a withdrawal to international recognized borders by Israel.
And that’s what we did in Lebanon. We withdrew exactly by meter by meter, centimeter by centimeter, to the borders as were declared by the United Nations. Now, once these borders were determined, any violation of Israeli sovereignty beyond these borders, like Hezbollah did, meaning attacking Israel with rockets and killing some of our soldiers, kidnapping others, that has to be answered by force, because that was a violation of our sovereignty beyond our border.
YONATAN SHAPIRA: I have a question to Uri. The conclusion that you made, that that has to be answered by force, who said that? Who said that by force we are going to save our country? Maybe it’s some conception that you were raised upon and all those values and all those principles that we got during our education, in processing Israel. I don't believe and I think the rest of the world, the enlightened world, do not believe that there is a solution that will come out by using force and using the Israeli military. And just think about what the Israeli government is saying now. They refuse for ceasefire. They refuse to stop the war. And missiles are falling on our families in Haifa, and at the same time, our leaders refuse to stop the war.
URI ZAKI: Yonatan, I respect your act of refusal, even though I don't necessarily support it. But I think because of your courageous act, you cease to differentiate between two different realities, the reality of occupation and the reality of a country defending itself. I think Hezbollah and also the Lebanese state, the Lebanon state -- I mean, the Lebanese government did not try to prevent Hezbollah from standing on our border. I think Hezbollah is a terrorist group, a similar group to many groups that are now threatening the Western world.
We did nothing to provoke the Hezbollah from attacking us. I think it’s a different story than the Occupied Territories, which the activities there were the reason for your act of refusal. I think it’s a different story, and I think, yes, once a country is being attacked on its borders, I don't see any other thing we can do. By the way, in a way, we tried another way. Israel -- it’s not the first time that the Hezbollah attacked over our northern borders. The two past times that it was done, there was no reaction, no military reaction. And indeed for the third time, if we would have been silent right now, in a few months they would do another violent act, maybe more viciously.
AMY GOODMAN: Yonatan Shapira.
YONATAN SHAPIRA: [...]
And tell me, please, why do you think that killing innocent Lebanese, by now 330, most of them civilians, children and women, why do you think that killing these innocent people will bring you some kind of security? It’s the same kind of logic to think that if you kill Lebanese civilians, you will force them to bring Israel security or to press the Hezbollah is the same kind of logic that maybe Nastrallah is trying to shoot Israeli cities and forcing, by that, the Israeli people to convince the Israeli government to stop this war. It’s the same kind of insanity.
And although -- just last important thing -- although it’s not the same situation in Gaza and in the Occupied Territories and in Lebanon, the same insanity and the same cruelty and the same stupidity of our leaders is now being on the spot. This is the danger, because the leaders of this country now and in the Lieutenant General, General Halutz, who is now leading this crazy war, will not hesitate to get Syria and to get Iran involved, and this is my greatest fear.
[...]
thankkyou electric canine
bow wow to that!
very timely
i am up early sunday morning
getting reAady to leave for zen group
it is so awesome that we have access to this alternative point of view
from these "combatants for peace"
bow wow to that!
very timely
i am up early sunday morning
getting reAady to leave for zen group
it is so awesome that we have access to this alternative point of view
from these "combatants for peace"
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
jimbo: are you Jack?. If you are Jack I understood you!.
yesterday with some friends we saw in the dojo a video of Kosen Thibauth, the dojo's maestro in absentia (well, we saw the video...). I hope he learn spanish faster because to listen to him in french and with translator is a bit... how to say it ... heavy.
here Feinmann writing about Truth, power and Death in today's pagina/12 contratapa:
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/contr ... 07-23.html
yesterday with some friends we saw in the dojo a video of Kosen Thibauth, the dojo's maestro in absentia (well, we saw the video...). I hope he learn spanish faster because to listen to him in french and with translator is a bit... how to say it ... heavy.
here Feinmann writing about Truth, power and Death in today's pagina/12 contratapa:
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/contr ... 07-23.html
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20646
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
Arcadia, not sure if I understood your question but if I did here is my answer.
no jimboloco is not me Jack Tilles. He is jim willingham the third, son of a bomber pilot Jim Willingham Jr. I am Crazy Jack Tilles son of Crazy Mike Tilles.
I am out of this one Arcadia, I lost interest in this from the git go. Only vanity has kept me reading and posting. As soon as single malt's orignal post on this string (maybe he is knip, he sort of sounds like him playing the devil's advocate. ) I lost interest in this debate long ago. When s-malt said pay back is a bitch for those shit bag terrorists. So what will be the payback for Israel? Good thing Israel has a couple hundred missle mounted nuclear weapons to settle the issues once and for all. Sort of a final solution.
knip if that is you I agree with jimboloco, if it ain't you I don't know what to think.
no jimboloco is not me Jack Tilles. He is jim willingham the third, son of a bomber pilot Jim Willingham Jr. I am Crazy Jack Tilles son of Crazy Mike Tilles.
I am out of this one Arcadia, I lost interest in this from the git go. Only vanity has kept me reading and posting. As soon as single malt's orignal post on this string (maybe he is knip, he sort of sounds like him playing the devil's advocate. ) I lost interest in this debate long ago. When s-malt said pay back is a bitch for those shit bag terrorists. So what will be the payback for Israel? Good thing Israel has a couple hundred missle mounted nuclear weapons to settle the issues once and for all. Sort of a final solution.
knip if that is you I agree with jimboloco, if it ain't you I don't know what to think.
I'm amazed that anyone could apologize for Israel's retaliatory actions this time-- at least the full extent of those actions. Simply amazed. We're just all in big-time trouble if this type of behavior is deemed necessary and right (gee, ya think?). Send a message? Kidding, right? What kind of message? I've heard the non-stop, circular "holy land" bullshit all my life, and I'm to the point where I don't give a good god-damn who started what, and when. An eye for an eye (or ten) leaves the whole world blind. Terrorist shit-bags from Palestine/Syria/Lebanon perpetrate their bankrupt "martyrdom", and the Western Killing Machine returns the terror ten-fold. "Shock and awe" is terrorism, in everything but name. Crunch the numbers. Send a message? Bullshit. That is an undeliverable message-- one which will need to be re-sent, and re-sent. It is no way to live. Clearly.
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