Head-in-the-Sand Liberals

[whimsicaldeb]

"Head-in-the-Sand Liberals
Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
By Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason" and "Letter to a Christian Nation""

[mnaz]

He's right to put religion on trial, of course. But what a bunch of hot air the rest of this article is. I think someone else has their "head in the sand". Jeez.

[Dave The Dov]

Religion is being a burden to mankind these days.
_________________
Honda FR-V

[whimsicaldeb]

His concerns are well placed and views are mostly accruate ... example: (emphasis added by me)

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.

--end excerpt
Sam Harris: Head-in-the-Sand Liberals

...Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause.

This is from today's newspaper...

Gaza women's bold move
2 die, 17 wounded in march past Israeli lines to rescue militants
Richard Boudreaux, Rushdi abu Alouf, Los Angeles Times
Saturday, November 4, 2006

(11-04) 04:00 PST Gaza City, Gaza Strip -- About 200 veiled Palestinian women broke through an Israeli troop and tank cordon around a mosque Friday to serve as human shields for dozens of armed militants.

The militants, some dressed in women's clothes, escaped but two of the women were killed by Israeli fire, and another 17 listed as wounded, on one of the deadliest days of fighting in the coastal territory this year.

The women's uprising brought a dramatic end to a 15-hour standoff and served as a surprise setback for Israeli forces that had stormed the town of Beit Hanoun on Wednesday to root out stockpiles of crude Qassam rockets and the militants who launch them into Israel.

--end excerpt
LA Times: Gaza women's bold move

The extremist teach their child to kill themselves for Jihad, and the women are willing to do the same, including being suicide bombers.

I'm not an atheist, and I’m also not religious. I hold loyalty to no ‘ism.’

In fact, non-religious as I am, I am still aware that the one place where Harris is wrong is that he hasn’t brought forward how all three of our major religions have been changed over time to represent the violence it now proclaims. At there inception, all major religions were in agreement and based on love/getting along – not violence. It’s not religion – it’s what man has done to them and in it’s name. It’s not god – it's what man has done to god and in the name of god.

But all of that is neither here nor there ... we either wake and smell the coffee – and see this extremism that lives in ALL the religions now for what is – hate; or we die under hate's tyranny in all it's extremisms.

This means then that liberals also have to get their heads out of their butts, or the sand, and begin looking at and addressing the truths within the criticisms being leveled at them. And be willing to work with others instead of only snipping at those who do not ‘believe as they do.’

For things really are as serious as Harris is pointing them out to be.

[mnaz]

It's not that Harris is completely wrong on any of his points; the article just strikes me as yet another oversimplified, alarmist piece of writing. Anyone who states flat out that "there is no doubt that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah" is showing their bias. Absolutely no doubt? How many non-combatants did Israel kill in its prolonged air strikes on civilian areas in Lebanon last summer? That had nothing to do with "human shields".

Who are these mythical liberals who believe that Western power is utterly malevolent by definition, etc.? Overstated and inflammatory, I think. But don't forget, the West did invade and occupy (illegally, probably) a Muslim country which had nothing to do with Sept. 11th, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Muslims dead and utter chaos reigning supreme. There is no place for this type of unnecessary military aggression on the world stage. None of us can really afford it anymore.

The article just seemed one-sided and oversimplified to me.

[stilltrucking]

God save us from head in their asses Christian Zionists and Neocons. I think they are still ahead in the body count.

Thanks for the synopsis Mark. One sided, I agree. Israel can do no wrong. Where the hell is the moral high ground when you are up to your ass in blood? A long sad twisted tale, so many missed opportunities for peace. Now a macabre game of tit for tat. Ariel Sharon, is he dead yet? This latest round of violence is on his head, and now his goon Olmert. going down the same old road to Masada. God the real estate broker with his biblical lands. Olmert selling out to the Jewish jihadists. Israel has its own lunatic fringe. The USA is a christian state these days, just as much of a threat as an Islamic state.

On a tangent:
The neocons and the jihadists have a lot in common.

Interesting BBC documentary of The Power Of Nightmares.

http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8466

Dave:
I been reading Richard Dawkins lately. He makes a lot of sense but I am not sure I want a new religion of science either. Scientists can be just as dogmatic as theologians it seems to me. Dawkins says scientists are humble they do not claim to have all the answers. But I wonder? I have seen some pretty cocky scientists. I don't want them tinkering with my soul. I don't want them to fix me. "God save us from the improvers of mankind" - Ray Nitzke of the Green Bay Packers, in his brilliant Geneology of Morals.
Priests in white lab coats not the answer. I see no conflict between faith and science.

The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.
Ferdinand Magellan

Oh yes I have plenty of faith, heretical faith, I expect to burn any day now. Coward that I am. It seems the trouble starts when two or more people gather together. The god gene is wired into our brains. Where is Magellan when we need him?

The Crusade Against Religion
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71985-0.html


Hey Deb:
just say hi-jack

gimme a couple of hours and I will delete this.
don't mean nothing
move on.

[whimsicaldeb]

Hey Deb:
just say hi-jack

gimme a couple of hours and I will delete this.
don't mean nothing
move on.

Hey Jack! (waving!)

Don't you DARE delete any of this post, or for that matter any other of your postings any more! That’s an order ! And for this 'commandment' just say ....
Yessssssssssssssssssssss Deeeeeeebbbbbbbbbbbbb!
(there she goes again ...nag/nag/nag!)
and roll your eyes to heaven


Follow that order!

Please.

…


We don’t all have to agree, that’s the joy of it all, we each can have our own opinions.

The real beauty of it all is that disagreeing doesn’t mean we have to kill each other or god won’t love us enough to give us 78 virgins, and heaven, (or whatever) except in the minds of those so warped that they think it does and won't accept anything else.


~~~~

Mnaz, curiously enough, when I first read his comments and also his books – I felt the same as you (that’s cuz I’m liberal) but his comments, his understands sort of grew on me and now I understand better what he means and agree with his main ideas … even as I also agree he’s biased about more than a few things, and that his thoughts and concerns are clouded by his deep passion and even fear.

None the less, there is much validity to what he is say, and that’s why I’m listening to what he’s saying, even though it’s clear that the way he’s saying things needs work.

...

Oh - PS, in keeping with the subject, check out this latest ...

DEMOCRATS GET RELIGION
Left-leaning politicians have a come-to-Jesus moment, bringing their faith out of the closet to challenge conservatives' claimed moral hegemony
Vicki Haddock, Insight Staff Writer
Sunday, November 5, 2006

The religious right may have to make room for the religious left.
Source:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... M44301.DTL

[whimsicaldeb]

DEMOCRATS GET RELIGION
Left-leaning politicians have a come-to-Jesus moment, bringing their faith out of the closet to challenge conservatives' claimed moral hegemony
Vicki Haddock, Insight Staff Writer
Sunday, November 5, 2006

The religious right may have to make room for the religious left.
Source:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... M44301.DTL

Additional update (emphasis added by me)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heidi-ewi ... 33535.html

One of the issues raised by radio host Mike Papantonio in our film Jesus Camp is the concern by some Christians that a marriage between a political party and a religious group is a dangerous and slippery slope for both. The intertwining of the GOP and Evangelical Christianity is currently playing itself out on the national stage via the Ted Haggard saga.

In one scene in Jesus Camp - now fervently making its way around the blogosphere and late night talk shows - Haggard unabashedly speaks out in his Sunday sermon against homosexual behavior, as he often did on the national political scene. His devoted parishioners were proud of Pastor Ted's outspoken nature and strong relationship with the Bush administration, which included regular phone calls to the White House. He represented the interests of 30 million Evangelicals, voicing their desire to overturn Roe v. Wade, stop stem cell research and assure that homosexuals did not benefit from the the slew of social and economic protections of marriage.

That is, until last week's shocking revelation of the Reverend's sexual dalliances and drug use forced him out of his position as moral authority and protector of Evangelical interests.

If a drug and sex scandal by an Evangelical minister in Colorado Springs can actually suppress conservative Republican voter turnout nationwide--possibly altering the results in several states--hasn't the merging of political and religious interests gone too far?

Haggard's oft-publicized ties with the White House leave born-again voters with a bad taste in their mouth for both him and his party affiliation. While this may delight Democratic voters this time around, liberals should also be concerned with this problematic pattern. As Hillary Clinton has begun to cultivate strong ties with conservative Evangelicals, further empowering the religious right by tacitly acknowledging that she cannot win the presidency without them, the cycle continues.

Haven't the prophecies of the Jesus Camp radio host come to pass before our eyes?

Hypocrisy and outrage over Haggard's double life aside, the goings on here speak to a bigger trend relevant to all of us: allowing religion and politics to manipulate each other to their own ends taints both the political process and the credibility of religious groups--a lose-lose scenario for everyone.

Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady are the co directors of JESUS CAMP

If you haven't seen the preview forhttp://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/ or heard this thought reformer Becky Fisher speak - then check them out, and see for yourselves.

We have to fix, stop, this type of influence now, because this is the biggest concern our nation is facing right now, or we'll have 'god's army' fighting 'their army' and this war will never be over.

[stilltrucking]

Is it really the biggest concern facing our nation deb? Maybe so, beats me. But I could think of a couple more immediate concerns.

On a minor note of concern:

Paul Sarbanes retired this year. we going to miss him come january. One of only 27 senators without Iraqi blood on their hands. Barbara Mikulski another senator from maryland her hands are clean, unlike hilary and dianne, not sure about B Boxer. I am looking hard at female politicians. My home girl Nancy P that Baltimore liberal, I used to walk by her father's house in little italy on my way to PS # 2, past st leo's church where I would cross the street to avoind meeting the nun's in their full habit witches robes,my head full of my grand mother's jewish superstitions about catholics. old wives tales, probaby some truth in them I suppose.

Well so much for staying on topic.

Here is a bit that worries me about as much as religion. Didn't you say once here or on your webjpage that you are a retired accountant?

SEC, Accounting Board Officials To Weigh Sarbanes-Oxley Update
By Carrie Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, November 11, 2006; Page D01

Cox, in a telephone interview yesterday, rejected the notion that regulators would gut the internal control standard, which was put in place to help detect fraud and financial errors. Instead, he said, the goal was to retool the provision using "the lessons learned from the past four years," including making sure that "things that don't have to do with financial statements don't have excessive attention" and ensuring that small companies do not bear "disproportionate" cost burdens. Cox declined to be more specific, adding that some of the language mentioned earlier in the week was flatly inaccurate or had already been "overtaken by events."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01542.html

"I knew I had to rise above it all
or drown in my own sh*t " Maggot Brain, Funkadelic

[jimboloco]

liberals got their heads in the sands

of course a convenient aphorism
made to order

as far as the palestinians go
their desperation is only magnified
by the israeli air strikes
and the resielience of poverty

[stilltrucking]

There is a lot not to like about the article.

Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.

I could not disagree more. Dick Cheney is plenty scary. Just as scary as any jihadist. For me anyway.

and

it is telling that the people who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies.

I don't find it nearly as troubling, I find it just as troubling, I find it no different than the theology of the lunatics in the muslim world. They both have so much moral clarity it is a shame.


I like this bit Deb from your second posted article about the religion and politics.

"The dirty little Republican secret is that they rely on religious rhetoric and strategy because they have to. If they don't, Americans might notice that they're not walking the walk when it comes to policy. They're not caring for the sick, the poor, the widowed, the orphaned. They're not acting as stewards of God's green earth. They are suffering the little children, but not in the way that Jesus meant."

So many problems facing us, the fall out from BUsh is going to be a bitch. Meanwhile in more mundane matters the middle class is on the run, subtle little changes to the accounting laws seem minor on the surface but it facilitates the continued rape and pillage of our economy. All those baby boomers going to their pension funds to find IOU's same with social security they say. SO the answer is the stock market they say, private investments, rugged individualists can take care of their own money. They don't need big government. We need to get big government off the back of big business so they can both climb our backs and stick it to us.

When the middle class gets stomped down it is a field day for the Mussolini's and Hitler's among us.

My Parents lived through the great depression, maybe it could never happen again, but will there be another Jew like FDR (oh yes he was a jew, how do I know? well the anti-semites tell me so) when we need him.

Judge Bork said that anyone who is not a socialist before the age of forty does not have a heart. And anyone who is still a socialist after forty does not have a brain.

What is wrong with having a brain and a heart. I am still a socialist far into my golden senile years.

So many mundane problems facing us, I think this last election was a step away form our Pastor President. A hopeful sign.

Speaking of democrats and compassion did you see this?

Time To Socialize MedicineHow Democrats can make themselves useful.
By Timothy Noah
Posted Wednesday, Nov. 8, 2006, at 4:33 PM ET
May I put in a word for socialized medicine?


Have you been inside a hospital lately?
The signs of breakdown are everywhere, from the emergency room overflowing with uninsured people to the film labs unable to locate MRIs that cost thousands of dollars to produce (usually because a doctor misfiled them) to the medical chart whose privacy is guarded so fervently that the patient may need a law degree to get his hands on it, only to discover that results of his last three blood tests never made it out of the fax machine. (Before she died of liver cancer, my wife found that the only place she could read her medical chart unmolested was the hospital ladies' room.) The National Academy of Sciences estimates that 3 percent to 4 percent of all people admitted to hospitals end up suffering some sort of injury due to medical error and that the number who die as a result may approach 100,000 annually, which exceeds the number of people who die annually in car crashes. The problem isn't incompetent doctors or medical technicians; it's the seat-of-the-pants way medical care must be delivered under the current jerry-built system. By comparison, your local Department of Motor Vehicles is a model of efficiency and cheery service.
http://www.slate.com/id/2153275/

I am putting a lot of hope in Pelosi, so much to do, where to begin?

Deb thanks for posting that article much food for thought. I don't hate bush, Hate is not helpful.

Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration — especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq — liberals can find much to lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror. Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are.

I agree hate is not helpful, but I think our enemies in the so called christian world are just as dangerous. One of the conclusions to the BBC documentary was that the world wide al Qaeda terrorist network was a myth of the neo cons. There may be one now but we helped to create it. Remember Bora Bora? The underground cave bunkers of al Qaeda, equiped with all sorts of high tech equipement, those immense underground complexes we were searching for? Rumsfeld even had power point slides showing diagrams of how sophisticated they were. Never existed, never found.

Where is Ali Baba's cave when we need it.

[jimboloco]

open says a me!

Liberals know how bad the bad guys are.
Only, personally. I am tired of the demonizing that the USofA does against Iran, France, and Germany.

I think that liberals are more onjective
than the ne'er do well conservatives, er reactionaries..

[mnaz]

God how I hate labels.

[stilltrucking]

Hard to go shopping for opinions without labels.
Everything pasteurized and in a can.
You can't tell the beets from the greeen beans without a label

Yeah I think I know what you mean. Slap a label on a problem and we got it under control. Give it a name and then we can think of a solution.

Adam was very good at naming things, we continue the tradition. It seems to be a prime objective to put labels on things. Makes us feel secure.

Iran had a democracy once upon a time, that was undone by us. For some reason I can't forget that. Maybe it is because I met someone who was tortured by Savak.

I think of Germany in the twenties and what could have been. Like a dream of Osaka castle.

France is hard for me not to forget a reviewing stand in Hanoi september of 1945, Flags flying side by side ours and uncle ho. He making a speach about Tom Jefferson and the friendship between his country and ours. Our generals and cia agents on the stand making speaches about our gratitude towards the viet minh (sp?) for their help in the war against the Japs, for rescueing our downed pilots. Then a fly over salute of our planes. Not long after that, France threatened to pull out of nato if she did not get her indo chinese colonies back. Naturaly we sold the vietnamese out. Even helped arm the Jap POW's to fight for the french.

Speaking of labels and demonizing, Jap was a standard word in my vocabulary for a long long time, what I grew up with, Walt Disney cartoons of yellow insect looking people.

I read the labels a lot more carefully these days. Not a bad idea when shopping-- for food or opinions. Every one so busy it is all fast food and sound bytes these days. Who has time to think things thru. Who needs to think anymoe anyway.

Ditto on that Rush, thanks for thinking it thru for me.

Idiots, the world is full of idiots, idiots that even right books. Educated dummies, yeah right mr harris liberals just don't get it.

Firsty wrote a nice, real nice piece about idiots a couple of days ago.

As Jesus said, we will always have the idiots among us. How do I know. Its a no brainer, I look in the mirror. Homo Idiotus.

George Bush makes me want to live another fifty years, i want to see how he goes down in history. I can only hope he gets what he deserves.

[jimboloco]

homo idiotus
i voted on msn poll >80% to impeach
better yet
embarrass
so much the better