Does "Nigger" Offend You?

Go ahead. Talk about it.
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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » December 21st, 2006, 5:15 pm

When the holocaust was over your people were apologized to from people who had nothing to do with it.
There you go.

What makes you think the holocaust is over?

Speaking of the KKK
He was the featured speaker at the conference in Tehran last week.
http://www.davidduke.com/?p=1530

I don't like this conversation izzy. Starting to feel like a pissing contest. You started this post about the word nigger. And I told you about the time a fellow called me a nigger then he hit me upside the head with a two by four. You called me a fool for going into that neighborhood, like I did not know that it was the ghetto.







My family had a lot of words yes the yiddish word for black was one, so was goy, shagitz, and shiksa. I have a sister here, not biologic but a sister. I called her a shiksa once, I thought I was mocking myself for what I believed when the women in my family owned my ass. But she took offense and I was sorry. But by now you know what a stupid sense of humor I have.

I don't like this conversation, starting to sound like a pissing contest.

Or maybe I an not confident enough in my self as a writer.

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Post by izeveryboyin » December 22nd, 2006, 8:50 am

what makes me think the holocaust is over is the fact that you all got to go on with your lives. Once it was done, you may have lost loved ones, but like I said before, you could eat and whatever dinner, drink from whatever fountain. Your identity as a human being wasn't robbed from you b/c you were brouight to a country in servitude and then finally freed to fight in Lincoln's war. But whatever. This conversation is going to just keep going south b/c I have very strong opinions about it, so maybe we should just retire it for now.

--k
sometimes I just like to breathe.

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » December 22nd, 2006, 9:57 am

Tell me what water fountain can't you drink from?

you call them them opinions, I call it racism.

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Post by stilltrucking » December 22nd, 2006, 10:29 am

The term pissing contest was used by veterans to describe the situation where one veternan denies another's trauma by saying his suffering was worse.

In 1963? or there abouts I was with C.O.R.E. picketing a jewish deli in baltimore that would not serve negoroes. I heard one sweet little old lady look at us with disgust and say "what is wrong with you people, I would not want to go where i was not wanted." Jews just as racist as any other people. I don't know why I expect more from them.

Rwanda was an eye opener for me. Nobody seemed to give a damn, we were too busy trying to rescue the white folks in Bosnia. Now we got Darfur.

Holocausts going on all over the world.

24/7

And here we have this insane war with so many Jewish fingerprints on it, wolfowitz, perle, feith, and many others.

The point is I don't have to be who I am. I can hide like George Allen.
I can pass for white if I want to.
But I wonder, how did Mel Gibson know that cop was a Jew? Sometimes I wonder if I smell jewish.

I remember a Jewish owned liguor stores on every corner of the black ghettto. There is someone elses misery in every dollar we earn.

I did not grow up in a suburban white neighborhood and have an occasional black friend over. I grew up in a sea of blackness. We were a singularity in a minority. Most of my life I have been a minority in a minority.

So many black men in my memory. Norman James, I ran into him a union hall in baltimore. He knew my uncle when he was a kid. My uncle a rich lawyer now. Norman said, "I could have been a lawyer." I knew he was right, what could I say about opportunities denied?

Katrina just destroyed any belief I had in how the situation was improving. I will have the memory of those bloated black bodies in the streets for a long time.

But my point is you tell me that it is all over for the jews, then you tell me about not being able to drink from a water fountain. I wonder when was that?

You think those jews in europe could go on with their lives, the holocaust continued in poland, lithuania, and other places after the war. And nobdoy wanted those wretched death camp survivors back, that is how so many wound up in Palestine.

like a I said a pissing contest, my people suffered more than yours,

blah blah blah

This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be a jew.

I suppose David Duke must be my friend if it is true that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I sometimes I think about the dignity of being melted down for my body fat so I could make a bar of that translucent soap that Kurt Vonnegut used in that POW camp in germany.

I have never been able to believe in never again. Never again my ass.

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Post by abstroint » December 22nd, 2006, 12:02 pm

No one experience is better or worse than the next. It just is. What is your experience? Open the box!
click
“Inverted Minstrel, 2001”
http://www.devilbunny.org/index.htm
We all suffer through the silencing of others experience.

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abstroint
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Post by abstroint » December 22nd, 2006, 12:19 pm

Better yet, El Otro
It’s shorter and may be more offensive

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Post by mousey1 » December 22nd, 2006, 1:13 pm

Every one often thinks their suffering is worse than the others.

It is enough, is it not, that people...people, have suffered and suffered greatly.

The comparisons are moot. The comparisons will get us nowhere fast.

Let us just agree it was all wrong and not be sidetracked by the degrees.

To reclaim the word nigger, hear it flowing freely from all lips without causing a flinch...

Nope, not gonna happen.

I won't use the word, it is an offensive word, always will be an offensive word when used by whites. Whenever I hear the word it is used in the context of degradation, superiority. In my presence the use of it shall always be disdained.

Sure it's just a word, but we all know how much history, how much hate, it can hold.

If I don't like to be called a certain thing, if you are aware that I do not like to be called a certain thing, but you continue to refer to me as such, then I will, rightly so, become angry. I suppose when white people hear black people calling each other nigger it causes confusion. I understand the reclaiming of the word, but it is perhaps not a realistic thing when so many of us know it is a term to draw offense.

Some time, maybe some time we will all learn to see one another as just beings instead of colors.

So from one being to another I wish you all well.
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse

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whimsicaldeb
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Post by whimsicaldeb » December 22nd, 2006, 3:23 pm

Just a couple of quick things I wanted to clear up …

Holocausts:

Holocausts are not exclusively “Jewish”

The Bosnian Genocide in the 90’s and the Genocide that is happening right now in Darfur are also holocausts, but there have been many, many holocausts since humankind’s creation/existence.

This tends to be forgotten and overlooked in favor of the Holocaust of the Jews in Germany. For Jewish people to be focused exclusively on their own pain and suffering is normal, and necessary for healthy healing; however to apply this limited understanding to the rest of those in the world – and expect others of this world to see things only from this limited direction of woundedness is not healthy. It’s sticks us all in victim hood and asking everyone to either be a victim and/or a codependent ... and that's not healthy for peoples or nations.

As much pain and suffering any one of us has had personally, any group has experienced – no one (not even the Jewish community) holds exclusive rights to pain and suffering and holocausts.

Slavery:

Contrary to popular belief, slavery has NOT been abolished. It’s still very much alive in places such as Niger, Africa … but most of all, it exists globally in it’s changed form:
Reference Smithsonian’s September 2005 article: Born Into Bondage

…History resonates with countless verified accounts of human bondage, but Asibit escaped only in June of last year.

Disturbing as it may seem in the 21st century, there may be more forced labor in the world now than ever. About 12.3 million people toil in the global economy on every continent save Antarctica, according to the United Nations’ International Labour Organization, held in various forms of captivity, including those under the rubric of human trafficking.

The U.S. State Department’s annual report on trafficking in persons, released in June, spotlighted 150 countries where more than a hundred people were trafficked in the past year. Bonded laborers are entrapped by low wages in never-ending debt; illegal immigrants are coerced by criminal syndicates to pay off their clandestine passage with work at subminimum wages; girls are kidnapped for prostitution, boys for unpaid labor.
Also… it should be noted that in the United States, in the south, Jews were also slave holders as well as slave traders. In fact, the Jewish peoples themselves have long been slave traders as well as being slaves themselves.
Reference:
The Continuity of the International Slave Trade and Slave System by By Charshee McIntyre (1990) Part 1 and The Continuity of the International Slave Trade and Slave System by By Charshee McIntyre (1990) Part 2

The trafficking of humans beings is still an ongoing process in today’s world, and Jewish peoples as part of every nation and peoples thru history have all practiced and profited from this trafficking. Indeed no one color or group or religion or country or peoples can point the finger at another about slavery … we’re all guilty, and still remain so, collectively.

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Post by stilltrucking » December 22nd, 2006, 3:35 pm

Holocausts are not exclusively “Jewish”
Tell me deb where did I say that?
Rwanda was an eye opener for me. Nobody seemed to give a damn, we were too busy trying to rescue the white folks in Bosnia. Now we got Darfur.

Holocausts going on all over the world.

24/7

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Post by whimsicaldeb » December 22nd, 2006, 4:57 pm

stilltrucking wrote:
Holocausts are not exclusively “Jewish”
Tell me deb where did I say that?
You didn't and I'm not saying or implying you did. Or that anyone said that directly or specifically.

That's me making my own statement(s).

...

ps ... and fyi ...

I read the postings, as far as they were at the time, and began typing my own reply. I'm slow at doing replies, it's take a longer time for me than others. You and others posted in between while I was working on my own. That seems to be happening a lot to me in this thread.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » December 22nd, 2006, 5:30 pm

stilltrucking wrote: This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be a jew.
I'm just reading this for the first time, I posted my reply while you were writing it I suppose. Things like that happen.

But I have a question for you Jack...

Why can't you just be proud (happy) of being simply YOU - Jack.

Why do you need to qualify yourself as 'jew' or 'old' or 'racist' or 'not' or any of the things you mention about yourself. Why do you need not to have a war in Iraq to be feel proud of yourself. Happy with yourself ... forgiving and loving and compassionately understanding with yourself? Can’t you just be Jack first, and then ‘jewish’ and ‘a minority’ and ‘a racist or not’ and a ‘white male’ and ‘retired’ and, and, and … a person who happens to be (and put in your labels).

Yet, all those things Jack, they are not who or what you are and it’s not egotistical to see, to know, yourself beyond all the labels that you and society has placed upon you is beyond your ego; it’s healthy and normal and balancing to do so – it’s love.



"This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be a jew."
says you ...

This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be a nonreligious person.
This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be an american.
This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be a woman of the 21st century.
This war in Iraq does not make me proud to be alive on this planet.

This war in Iraq doesn't make me proud - period. Why would it? Why would I want it to? Why would I even look for it to? And why I would even look for it NOT to?

Do you understand?

Why are you placing your own peace of mind outside of yourself? Your TRUE self; not labeled self.

I’m all those things (an american white woman) and more than just those things; I’m even more than just “Deb” – and none of those things can even remotely get close to defining who and what I am; so why would I even attempt to cling to such things let alone defend them or let them define me? [I don't]

You’re no different Jack.

None of us are.

So why do you stubbornly cling to these things, Jack, when you know better? And I know you know better because I've read you writings. So why do you spend so much time defending them so? Expounding on them as if they were the most important things in this world when they are not? I truly do not understand, this fascination you have.

But I know explicitly that I don’t want to join you in your … misery.

Come on Jack – get beyond that crap.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » December 22nd, 2006, 5:36 pm

ps ...

Maybe you're not supposed to be proud of being a Jew? Anymore than I should go around all proud of being a White, American, Woman.

Maybe being that type of proud it's not good for us, or this world? Did you ever consider that?

Maybe that's why it doesn't, hasn't been, working for you. It sure as heck doesn't work for me.

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Post by mnaz » December 22nd, 2006, 7:05 pm

... like something I wrote last summer about "pride".... It keeps you fit (I wrote, "keeps the house clean", or some such thing) and it goeth before a downfall as well. Which is it? Both, of course.

Be proud of your roots, of who you are. Of course. And the only proper "in-group" is the planet, as J. Campbell put it. Both are true.

I was hauled off to church every Sunday in my generic, evergreen-choked suburb as I grew up. The preacher talked a good game about universality and God's boundless love, but there were too many rules, too many people who'd be crushed under various three-strikes-and-you're-out statutes of this boundlessly loving God..

I think that was my greatest gift as a sheltered, blissfully clueless individual growing up.... I took it for granted that most of the lines were imaginary, that it was all just one tremendous work of art, inflected with so many colors and textures. Black and white were textures. Cliche? Well, of course. But it worked for me. I remember one of my relatives who constantly tried to figure out ethnic origins from last names and I thought it strange. They're all parts of a greater sum, right? I always had a vague instinct for breaking down walls. But that's easy for me to say. I grew up in a sheltered suburb..

As for the word itself, I choose not to use it. Yet so many people today use forms of the word for impact or even comedic effect, which lends "spiritual distance"... Anyway, just some thoughts.

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Post by stilltrucking » December 22nd, 2006, 10:12 pm

Anyway, just some thoughts
some good thoughts
thank you.

I was just trying to speak from my own experience.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » December 23rd, 2006, 2:24 pm

mnaz wrote:... like something I wrote last summer about "pride".... It keeps you fit (I wrote, "keeps the house clean", or some such thing) and it goeth before a downfall as well. Which is it? Both, of course.

Be proud of your roots, of who you are. Of course. And the only proper "in-group" is the planet, as J. Campbell put it. Both are true.

I was hauled off to church every Sunday in my generic, evergreen-choked suburb as I grew up. The preacher talked a good game about universality and God's boundless love, but there were too many rules, too many people who'd be crushed under various three-strikes-and-you're-out statutes of this boundlessly loving God..

I think that was my greatest gift as a sheltered, blissfully clueless individual growing up.... I took it for granted that most of the lines were imaginary, that it was all just one tremendous work of art, inflected with so many colors and textures. Black and white were textures. Cliche? Well, of course. But it worked for me. I remember one of my relatives who constantly tried to figure out ethnic origins from last names and I thought it strange. They're all parts of a greater sum, right? I always had a vague instinct for breaking down walls. But that's easy for me to say. I grew up in a sheltered suburb..

As for the word itself, I choose not to use it. Yet so many people today use forms of the word for impact or even comedic effect, which lends "spiritual distance"... Anyway, just some thoughts.
I'm going to try and explain msyelf, what I'm trying to say better.

My being a white american female are accidents of birth ... happenstance. I did not create them so why should I be either proud, or not proud of them. They simply are what they are, and while they do bring a set of experiences into my life; they do not define my life, or me.

My sense of my own value; self-worth; self-esteem; self-respect as a person is not dependent on being a white american woman; though society would like to teach me others. Still, I know better – and like you mnaz, knew it from birth.

We all did (knew it from birth), even all the fucked up people; like in my case – my racist and bigoted parents. They tried like hell to pressure me, force me to think and act and believe as they did … but it didn’t work.

Nothing has shaken me from my “childish” understand that we are all human first; flesh & blood, joy & pain, sweat & tears; all of us and every child is born knowing this and continues to know it until societies in all their various forms twists the facts and that teach us differently. Some of us conform to societies teachings … and some of us don’t. I’m of the later group.

I also grew up in "shelter suburbia.” (Yeah right!)

In 1964 I was 10 years old and I remember watching the Watts Riots as it was happening on TV with my parents. An incident happened, I was shocked when I saw the film footage of firefighters blasting the black people with these strong jets of water that sent them skidding across the pavement and slamming into walls and such all because they had been walking down the street yelling; and in my shock I blurted out a question, asking why were they being so mistreated, that they were being treated cruelly.

My father turned on me with such quickness and such fury, getting up into my face yelling at me about how black people where not human, that they were animals and didn’t know their place thus they deserved to be getting what they were getting and how could I be so ignorant; and I was stunned into silence. All of it stunned me; what was happening; the rage of his response; the hate; his own ignorance – all of it. Stunned me.

I loved my dad – and how could someone I loved so much be filled with so much hate?

I remember looking at the screen, looking deeply at the black people on the screen; trying to see, to figure out and understand exactly how how my father could be so mistaken; to understand (and then correct) why couldn't he see that these people were obviously human beings, just like us. … to see and understand what so just so simply, so plain to me.

I’m also an animal lover, and the idea that mistreating animals and being cruel to them was okay to him too, was just as shocking to me. I don’t like cruelty to things of any kind; animals, including the human animal.

But I couldn’t see it; I couldn’t see the reasons to be cruel, like he did. So I turned back to my dad and told him what I knew to be true; they were human beings just like us, but even if they were “animals” they are still being treated cruelly and that’s wrong.

My dad jumped up and came at me so fast ... he bitch-slapped me across the face saying "I'll teach you not to be a nigger lover! No child of mine is going to be a nigger lover!" He dragged me to my room, took of his belt and proceeded to beat the crap outta me.

As things turned out in my life, and as I am the person I am, that tactic didn’t work with me either.

And I was called so many things for not believe as they believed; childish, naive; overly sensitive; ignorant; etc., ... blah, blah, blah.

What I'm getting at is this: my sense of self-worth was inborn, and while I took some hits, especially in my childhood – and I would lose it inside msyelf from time to time, I always recovered. And that’s how I found out that our self-worth is not dependent on outward things.

My self-worth is not dependent on outward things such as being a christian, or a buddhist, or an atheist, or non-religious, or white, or an american, or rich, or poor, or married, or a mom; or any of that stuff.

Our self-worth isn’t dependent on those things – unless we believe that to be so; and that’s what societies use the most in getting people to do what they want them to do (for good or ill); tie their self-worth up in all these self created beliefs – that are worth is only there if we are this, that and the other thing.

Our human spirit, our souls needs union, communication, cooperation and contact with others to feel complete, to be satisfied, to live well and societies know this as well; and it’s the other thing they use to their advantage (again, for good or ill) by withholding those things dependent upon how well we perform and conform as defined by our current societal beliefs of our times.

That we don’t have to buy into, that we can change these things at any time, that we’re born knowing better (knowing this) … that’s what I was trying to say.

And to Jack, I’m saying; you are a valuable person – not because you are a jewish white male, or because of your education, or even because of your personal experiences; you are valuable simply because you are you.

Each of us is, and for no other reason, we simply are.

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