Does "Nigger" Offend You?

[Dave The Dov]

whimsicaldeb the Watts Riots were 1965. I think you must be getting confused with those riots in Birmingham Alabama which did take place in 1964 and the images of those people getting blasted by those fire hoses are more related to that event. Good to see that you over came that horrific beating that your father gave when he decided that you must never love those who are African Americans. Did your father over come the racial hatred in his life eventually????
_________________
Acura MDX

[whimsicaldeb]

Dave, thank you for the clarification. Truly, that clears up so old stuff for me. I knew this event happened in 64 when I was ten, but everyone would say “oh you must mean the Watts riots" which as you said was in 65. So – truly; thank you. It's nice to get that cleared up. I knew I wasn’t crazy. (Or that crazy anyway. ~grin~)

Did your father over come the racial hatred in his life eventually?

Thank you for asking Dave, because the answer is yes.

Life has this funny way about it, and as life would have it, my dad got a promotion for a high level supervisory position at the San Francisco (main) office of PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric Co.) where he was surprised to find that out of the 15 people he was to supervise, only one was a white male and he was gay! There he was, face to face everything he’d been taught to hate. I laughed then, and I still laugh now. You gotta love ‘karma’ ~ it’s got such a great sense of humor.

I thought he was going to quit, or only do the job for as long as it took to get another transfer out of that position; and he did try that for a brief bit in the beginning but it didn’t pan out. So he stayed, and faced the situation; faced himself and all his long held beliefs. It’s a credit to his strength of character and his true nature (there all along but buried underneath all the hate) that in the process of staying; he stayed open enough to really learn, and really change. And the people he worked with stopped being “that nigger (used at home) ___” and “that black guy ____” and simply became “____.” Every race, religion, sex, and sexual persuasion; day by day; the progress was the same.

And or course during that same time period I met and married Cal, bringing Chinese-American relations into the family fold for him to get used to. Which he did. Not smoothly ... but he did.

When he retired in 1985, they were genuinely sorry to see him go, because they truly admired him. At the farewell party they kept saying to me tough but fair – honest – he was; but most of all they respected him because of how many times he went to bat for them (each of them over the years) and won against upper management changes that would have cause much strife not only on their work lives, but in some cases their home lives as well.

He stayed a supervisor in that department for 15 years; he found his “sweet spot” in this most unusual place and stopped searching for transfers and promotions. Turned some down even, to stay. And when he passed away in 1998, 12 years after he retired, many of those same wonderful people that he had worked with came for his funeral and gave their respects. (I was so touched, it meant so much to me that they did this.)

Things change; people – can and do – change.

Thank you again Dave, for asking.

[Dave The Dov]

The only reason I remember the Watts riots is because they happen the year I was born. Yeah time does make a person forget now and then when it comes to important events that take place and you are there to see them as they happen. Good to see that your father did in fact over come those hatreds in his lifetime.
_________________
Dominican Republic Forum

[whimsicaldeb]

The only reason I remember the Watts riots is because they happen the year I was born. Yeah time does make a person forget now and then when it comes to important events that take place and you are there to see them as they happen. Good to see that your father did in fact over come those hatreds in his lifetime.

Yes, but it was always a struggle for him.

Example: He used to visit the VFW a lot, but towards the end of his life - those last couple years, he stopped visiting all together because when he'd go visit the VFW he'd come back trash talking. He'd stop again once home and would say: "That's just the way they talk" "It doesn't mean anything" but he knew inside that it did. It bothered him he clearly saw what was expected; needing to be that way (bigoted/racist) to fit in. After awhile it got to be like living a double life and in the end he finally gave it up completely and choose his home life and extending family over those old VFW chums (crumbs).

I don’t know if all VFW’s are that way … and I’ve never personally been but apparently in our area, they are.

[Dave The Dov]

I would have to say it varies from one to the other.
_________________
Mortgage Brokers Forum

[abcrystcats]

I had this a reply to this post a couple weeks ago, but for some reason it didn't take.

In the meantime, the conversation seems to have diverged a lot ....

In answer to your question: yes, it does offend me. It also horrifies me. Language defines people, so why are you using the language of the oppressor to describe yourselves, even affectionately? Especially affectionately? The white people who enslaved, murdered, tortured and raped you should not have the right to give you one little word to apply to yourselves. Stop shaming yourselves this way. It angers me. It makes me sick. It wasn't even such a bad word when originally used, but in my opinion, the way black people have perpetuated it as derogatory stereotype, in rap songs, in books, in their conversation with each other, has made it far worse. I can't even imagine .... the KKK calls you that, and you call yourselves that. Ugh.

I don't think we have any adequate or fair way to describe your particular race category in the United States. Nothing works. Randall Robinson has said (and I agree) that the term African American is even more offensive to him than "nigger." "African American" says that you're not really from here. No one except the Native Americans (and not even them) are really from here, yet I would not call myself an English American or a German American. "African American" separates you from your right to own your citizenship and your right to be here in this country. If anyone has a God-given right to be in this country, you have that right, because you were dragged here in chains, against your will, and forced to work to make this a better place.

Furthermore, any black person alive in this country today is only here because his ancestors were a hell of a lot stronger, braver and smarter than anyone else. Ten of thousands of your predecessors were murdered before they ever set foot on American soil. You own this land with your blood, sweat and tears in a way that nobody else can. And yet we dare to call you "African" American ??? As if you were one step away from the rest of us?

It doesn't work. It doesn't have the negative cultural history of "nigger" but it doesn't work. It's a backhanded insult, and a big one.

"Black" doesn't work either. You're no more "black" than I am "white." It's not descriptive. But, at least if you can separate the word "black" from its historical association with evil, then you can use it. Sort of.

I always liked "negro" which although it means "black" has a longer history of accepted use, no offensive connotations that I know of (except its slang form, as above), and is commonly used to describe people originating on the African continent. I wonder why it has fallen out of use, whereas this obnoxious and highly derogatory term, "nigger" has stubbornly refused to die.

I never thought of what it would be like to be a distinctive racial minority until I lived in Kingston, Jamaica for three months. For no reason that I could think of, I was stressed. Everywhere I went, I stood out like sore thumb. I felt everyone looking at me because of my race. Now I turn that around and apply it to black people in the United States and I wonder how you stand it, how do you live with it, how do you ever get used to it?

Then, there is so little credit given to you for the work you contributed to this country. It all seems to be tokens that are granted, and little ones, at that. At the very least, we ought to have one memorial day that is universally celebrated in this country to commemorate your enslavement and sacrifice. There isn't. MLK Day (the only thing close)-- which is a holiday in some states-isn't in others. It ticks me off that in this state, where so many black people live, we do not take that day off. It isn't just the holiday itself, it's the way it trivializes the contribution of black people to the history of the nation.

We have TWO days off for Thanksgiving. And what's that? It's to celebrate some FREE people voluntarily coming to this country to seek more FREEDOM, and once they got here, they promptly began oppressing the Indians who had lived here long before they did. Sorry, I am speaking this way of my OWN ancestors. I am proud of them, but also ashamed that they are accorded more worship than the ancestors of people who lost everything, were dragged here in chains, and contributed at least as much as they did to the development of this country.

On that subject, what we need more of in this country is some serious genealogical research into the histories of black people. When you know WHO you came from, and the characteristics and hard work of the people who made it possible for you to be alive, you get a lot more personal pride. Everyone needs that. Everyone needs to know who they came from. It isn't a small thing. Paraphrasing Randall Robinson again, since we all take pride in the ancestors we know of, then isn't it logical to assume that this identification is important to everyone? I can't imagine what my life would have been like without our family legends, going back several generations. For a long time, it was mostly oral tradition, but these tales of courage helped me to define myself. We need to establish that pride of history for every living American -- and especially the black ones.

Back to the name: "Nigger." I am reminded of this Nina Simone song, "Four Women." Each verse describes a woman who's been terribly abused and traumatized, and each woman has been given a diminutive name, like a pet. The last woman's name is "Peaches" and she says she'll "kill the first mother" she sees. There's more to the song, but I can't help drawing a parallel between her bitterness and continued diminution of her identity as a strong and scarred human being, by the use of the wrong name. In Simone's delivery of the song, you can tell that she intends to emphasize the contrast between what the women are called and their experiences in life. By the same token, this diminution of the black experience by using words like, "nigger" only serves to perpetuate the feeling that you are somehow less in this society than everyone else. And you aren't. If anything, you are more, because of your experience, both personally and historically.

[abcrystcats]

P.S. Since I forgot to say it -- yes, I do think words have power. And I think it is easier to invest them with power by the meaning and history we give the word, than it is to take the power of a word away. You say, yourself, that you are offended by the term "African American." I agree, but that just proves that words have the power to offend, after all. -- Perhaps even beyond their original meaning and intent. Nigger has a history that is over 200 years old. I'd rather just kill the word (the inappropriate use of it) than try to change the cultural meaning at this point. Makes more sense.

And when I say, "kill the word" I don't mean what John Ridley implied. He implied, "burn books," -- ban it from discussions of any kind, including this one. Don't use it in reference to history. His article is about an all-or-nothing attitude towards it. I'd just prefer that people stopped using it altogether in present tense contexts. No one deserves that name and the historical significance it possesses. A line in a recent movie, "Stop thinking like a nigger." just proves that it has NOT lost its power of derision, its implications of inferiority. And there's this double standard. If I called you a "nigger" you'd be highly offended. But you can call you a nigger and it's OK? That's like saying it doesn't hurt you if you slap yourself. Or if you slap another black person it's just fine, but if I slap you it hurts like hell. Makes no sense.

It is a six letter word. The human race is highly inventive. We can come up with better, more appropriate words, instead of trying to make old, ugly words like "nigger" do new work. Too much historical/cultural baggage on this one ....

[abcrystcats]

I keep posting to this. I can't help myself. I keep reading the comments and having more to say:

the reason why I brought this topic up to begin w/is b/c I just can't seem to understand why white people who are offended by the word seem to be more so than the black people who are offended by it. For awhile I just figured most of them say they're offended b/c they think that's what they're supposed to say in order to seem culturally sensitive, or b/c they think it's what I want to hear. From the people here at Studio Eight, the same might not be true b/c you are all such brilliant, independent thinkers. So w/that in mind, tell me, what IS the angle?

The reason why is because it's a putdown, a diminutive (intended to diminish) not uplift. And it's racial, so when it's used in the context of real living people, it not only diminishes the person it's applied to, it diminishes everyone in that racial category at one blow. And when I hear you use it playfully, lightly, in casual conversation with one another, it makes me think that you have thoroughly internalized the racial stereotypes forced upon you by others.

You said something interesting before. You said:

When I'm out w/firends, white, black, hispanic, whatever, I'll use the word nigger. It's my way of saying "I'm okay with it. I'm not afraid."

And I guess what puzzles me is that your habitual use of it convinces me that you ARE afraid of the word. It has power over you because you feel the need to prove something in relation to it. As long as you keep trying to prove that it has no power over you, it (and the meaning ascribed to it over centuries) will have you in its control.

This may not be a perfect analogy, but you wouldn't shoot a gun in the air every now and then, just to prove that you weren't afraid of guns, would you?

And going back to something that Z said, I cannot think of any serious representative black leader (and I am not counting rappers or comedians in my 'serious leader' definition) who uses the word "nigger" habitually in public.

There are lots of words that I think are offensive, and occasionally I use one or two of them myself, but in doing so I know I am breaching the line of social acceptability. None of those words conjures up images of racial hatred and violence -- crimes against humanity -- like the word "nigger" does!

I don't know. Maybe I am not being completely honest with myself here. Maybe the word offends white people so much because it does conjure up these horrifying images, and in doing so, it makes us feel shame. I don't know why I should feel shame, because I never did those things, and neither did any of my forebears, but there you go.

In any case, I would rather hear any word than the word "nigger." It makes the hair on the back of my neck stick up and then I feel like I'm going to vomit. You can scream, "cunt!" "bitch!" and "whore!" right in my face and I'll just think you're vulgar and violent and abusive, but let me hear the word, "nigger" spoken in conversational tone two tables away and my flesh will crawl.

Considering its history, it ought to do exactly that, to any person with any sense.

I also marvel at the people who just casually remarked that it was a word like any other and its cultural significance has changed (it has? I didn't notice) and so --whatever -- it just rolls off their backs when people use it. Go with the flow. What if Jews started making a habit of wearing yellow stars on their clothing? Would making it a fashion statement take away the cultural significance? I doubt it very much.

[mnaz]

... It does offend me. It also horrifies me. Language defines people, so why are you using the language of the oppressor to describe yourselves, even affectionately? Especially affectionately? The white people who enslaved, murdered, tortured and raped you should not have the right to give you one little word to apply to yourselves. Stop shaming yourselves this way. It angers me. It makes me sick.

With all due respect Laurie, it seems you overreach here. You have no real claim to judge the use of this word so strongly by people it is/was meant to oppress. Does language "define" people? Can a word be reclaimed from oppressors by rendering it a toothless parody of itself through repetition? That seems to be the progression in the last 15 years or so. I have my doubts, as do you, but who are you (or me) to pronounce such emphatic judgment?

You own this land with your blood, sweat and tears in a way that nobody else can. And yet we dare to call you "African" American ??? As if you were one step away from the rest of us?

Again, I beg to differ. No one owns this place any more than anyone else.

We have TWO days off for Thanksgiving. And what's that? It's to celebrate some FREE people voluntarily coming to this country to seek more FREEDOM, and once they got here, they promptly began oppressing the Indians who had lived here long before they did. Sorry, I am speaking this way of my OWN ancestors. I am proud of them, but also ashamed that they are accorded more worship than the ancestors of people who lost everything, were dragged here in chains, and contributed at least as much as they did to the development of this country

.

Very true. Can't argue with that.

[abcrystcats]

You have no real claim to judge the use of this word so strongly by people it is/was meant to oppress. Does language "define" people? Can a word be reclaimed from oppressors by rendering it a toothless parody of itself through repetition

You have no real claim to judge the use of this word so strongly by people it is/was meant to oppress.

Yes I do. I can judge whatever I want. Don't need a "claim." Furthermore I will. And furthermore I was asked a question and I answered it.

Does language "define" people?

Books have been written trying to answer this question, and the tentative answer of some has been yes.

Can a word be reclaimed from oppressors by rendering it a toothless parody of itself through repetition

Possibly, but what's the point of fighting a battle (if that is really what it is) with a six letter word, an abstract concept with some serious context attached to it by history? And what if you lose the battle anyways? That is some major wasted time, then.

Ok, that's true about the "owning" part but I was trying to make a point about the term "African American" not actually "owning" .....

One more thing: I just read the rest of this heated discussion and now I'm almost sorry I said anything. This is a Venus fly-trap, isn't it? Not a discussion.

[mnaz]

Yes I do. I can judge whatever I want. Don't need a "claim." Furthermore I will. And furthermore I was asked a question and I answered it.

There's a difference between "judging" for yourself and judging others, which you seemed quite intent on with your strong comments about people who use the word in question. Sorry if that wasn't clear. And sorry if I misread your intent.

.... what's the point of fighting a battle (if that is really what it is) with a six letter word, an abstract concept with some serious context attached to it by history?

Good point. So why not use the word in ways that could disable and disarm it? Again, I don't necessarily "agree", but then... who the hell am I in this matter?

One more thing: I just read the rest of this heated discussion and now I'm almost sorry I said anything. This is a Venus fly-trap, isn't it? Not a discussion.

All the best and necessary discussions seem like a Venus fly-trap, don't they?

[abcrystcats]

I am not certain where you are getting that I am judging others. Probably I implied it somewhere along the line. I don't really know why this word is used in any context directed at living human beings. I just wish it wasn't.

I am constantly amazed at how people can use words loaded with meaning and then say they mean nothing.

Or how others can use words so skillfully to create the appearance of communication .... and when you take it apart .... zip!

Both styles are dead air space to me. I'd rather be direct, and if someone thinks it's "judging others" in a negative context, then so be it.

I said what I had to say, and just in case you didn't read it before, I think that there is no point in trying to take the teeth out of this word. What you are suggesting is tantamount to trying to rewrite history -- another thing we are fond of doing in this country. Why not? Why? If you succeed, you've accomplished nothing, merely recycled six letters. If you fail, you could perpetuate a stereotype (something I believe is happening already) or even turn back the clock (unlikely but possible). Why play with it?

Like I said, humans are very inventive and language has infinite potential. Invent new words. We are struggling with it, and words like "black" and African American are abysmally inadequate, but we're working on a better word. Until it comes along, I'd still prefer to put "nigger" in the closet with the white hoods and other paraphernalia of a really horrible time in history ....

I never saw the movie Crash, and I just got it for Xmas and watched it. Seems to me one of the overriding themes of that movie is that racial stereotypes aren't the exclusive territory of the white race. Stereotypes are traded from minority to minority and even perpetuated from within minority classes. I'm sick of it in any form -- implied or actual -- between races or between members of the same race. Maybe I am overly sensitive, but I think its time to put this word to bed. I'm not interested in playing with its hypothetical potentials at all, just for fun or any other reason.

This thread is now five pages long, so obviously someone touched a nerve.

Sorry you misunderstood or misjudged my intent, but no matter. It will be done again. I don't like these kinds of conversations because they always seem dwindle down into petty misunderstandings and battles. After the misunderstandings wide nets of forgiveness are cast and the original questions aren't ever settled, resolved, or moved to higher plane of awareness.

Maybe this is really a silly conversation. After all, it's just a WORD, and I am not hurt by it. Not really. Others are hurt by it, yes, but not me, so I suppose I should have just kept my nose out of it. Who am I, a white person, to say what words like this should be used and in what context?

ERRRGGG.

[mnaz]

It's just not an easy thing for most people to talk about. Really, it's a tribute to our willingness to try and communicate with each other, despite the missteps, that this thread stretches five pages. (Happy New Year Laurie).

[abcrystcats]

Mark, I didn't realize how ANGRY I was about this subject until I started posting. We all have the right to be human beings FIRST and members of a race second or third. I do mean ALL of us. ALL. This crap about race is mostly BS. It is about skin color.

I am not going to sit here and argue anything about skin color.

This word. "nigger" is a skin color word. It doesn't deserve my spit.

No one who has integrity as a human person should give this word credit for anything ....

[knip]

lenny bruce had it right...say it often enough and it loses its hatefulness

nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger- nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-nigger-