What am I missing here?

[whimsicaldeb]

I knew I shouldn't have replied again. I already said what I wanted to say in my first 2 posts to this thread. Those are the posts I was hoping you'd reply to.

Here's my judgement about you... You're judgemental. I don't like it. Shrug.

Yes ... shrug. Perfect. Just shrug it off.
I don't like a lot of things about others as well.
So what.

So now it's become personal. You've pulled me into it, too.

I've not touched you, or dragged you in Doreen - you're here because you choose to step in here and get involved. In fact you wrote something to that same effect earlier.

Can you accept (admit to yourself) and that you made the decision and took the action to step in and get further involved. Or do you still need to blame me for your actions?

I don't care for it when people are judgemental. I don't like name calling. and I am NOT holding you to any higher standard than anyone else.

I don't like it when ANYBODY does it. Not in my personal life in real life and not on the net. EVER.

Okay. I hear you, I get it, you don't like it.

But ~ I'm still going to do anyway.
So ~ now what?

I know I'm being a hard ass, but I'm not budging on this one either so ...we're just going to be opposites of each other. Ying to each others Yang (or however that's said).

People come up short on things all time; short on money, short on patience, short on supplies. You don't say people who point out those short comings are being 'unfair' do you?

Oh yeah I do. I don't accept it. I will never accept anybody telling me I've "fallen short" of being whatever type of person they want me to be. I am ME. And it is ME and ONLY me who can decide whether I've fallen short in any aspect of my life. Nobody can tell me that because if they do, I don't listen. As I said in my previous post, if I am judged, I tell the person who judged me to fuck off and leave me alone. I'm not here to live up to whatever anybody else's ideas of how I SHOULD be are. Should is a word which should be stricken from the English language.

Okay then.

I know full well that many people on this board have that 'you're not going to tell me' attitude and that many don't like to listen or hear anything that differs from what they want to hear or see.

I know, I've known for a good while.

..."I'm not here to live up to whatever anybody else's ideas of how I SHOULD be are. - doreen

Neither am I.

But Doreen, that also includes me not having to live up to your (and the other's here) ideas of how I should be talking and behaving and posting with you and the others here on this board.

(!!!!)

In this case, in this thread, with this subject; people were short on facts, information, and awareness.

I was not being 'unfair' pointing this out.

If you wanted to provide information (which you did), fine.

But you WERE being totally unfair and judgemental when you called Cecil and SooZen racists. Jesus Christ! Why would you SAY that?

Because Cecil SooZen support Imus and Imus is a racist.

In your opinion I was totally unfair and judgmental saying they were racists. I hear and accept your opinion (mnaz's as well) but my accepting of your opinion does not mean I'm agreeing or concur with your opinion.

I am aware that I may be wrong about them ... and I hold open the possibility that I may change my mind at some future time about them; but at this moment, despite all that everyone has said and done, I still think they are racists.

BTW ... Imus says he's not bigoted and racist either. He says he's not because he does good deeds in other ways and because he only acted that way because he was being paid to. I don't believe him either.

Again, I'm open to changing my mind, but as of yet I haven't seen anything that gives me pause to.

One day they'll come back to this thread and speak for themselves. But since all this name-calling is going on when they're not present, I feel compelled to speak for them. Calling them that was UNFAIR and even MORE than that... UNTRUE!

Good, I hope they do. I'd like to talk with them about this, here more of what they have to say. I didn't know they were gone, or why - only that they were absent. I assumed they were staying about by intent.

As I already told you, I'm from the camp that thinks that free speech is a VERY important thing. Please read my previous posts. Just because I do not like what Imus said or what any other idiot says who uses jokes which are in poor taste and not funny, doesn't mean I can't change the channel.

AND because I feel the exact same way as Cecil & SooZ apparently feel... sticking up for the asshole's right to say whatever he wants....why don't you call me a bigot? Because I'm not in my 60's? Because I don't live in Texas? Because I'm the owner of this website? Or why?

No.

Because you DID change the channel and choose not to listen to the guy, and they DIDN'T and did. Furthermore, they sat here supporting him in this thread and you didn't. You didn't even get involved until well after I arrived and stirred things up.

In the course of any debate, discussion, conversation ... personal judgments/opinions intermingle; always will; and you can't do a damn thing about it.

Nonsense. That's just not true. Personal attacks on other people... name calling... judging them as people... those things are not parts of debate. Those things are parts of arguments by kids in a sandbox.

You're upset because you see my differing opinions about those you care about as me "attacking" your loved one; I understand your passion, angst, and need to defend; I share them; I was moved by my own when I first came to this thread.

But it doesn't have to be that or stay that way ... and peace can come to you/this/us without either one, or any of us, HAVING to change our opinions or give up our 'sides' ... we CAN agree to disagree - even when the differring opinions are about someone we care about.

As long as you see view my opinions as 'attacking' other people' then you'll always have a problem with but if you could see our differing opinions as not attacks and attacking, but simply; different opinions (yes, even those about cecil and soozen) ... then we can be of differing opinions; without the angst.

Name calling, to me, is bitch, whore, bastard, asshole etc.

Labeling is saying someone is 'racist' - or intelligent, or pretty, etc.

So I don't agree with you that I'm calling any one names. I am labeling what I'm seeing based on my judgments, judgments being 'determinations from what I've witness' and not 'passing judgment as if I'm involved with the law.

So, if you can find it in your heart to accept that I'm NOT trying to hurt them or attack them; only sharing that my opinions and labels what I've see and why; and that our opinions and labels are different ... well, that would be really great.

But ... that's okay too; I'll deal with it.

I remember standing outside of my place of employment a few years back when a fellow employee started slamming a co-worker, saying demeaning things about his skills & personality. I walked away and said, "Please don't ever talk like that in front of me again. I wonder what you say about me behind my back."

Well that's bad enough when people talk behind other people's backs but when they start calling each other names to their faces, well.... I want no part of it!

You feel justified in hurting people's feelings because you feel like it's ok to judge people? Sorry. It's NOT OK to judge people. It's just not OK. Period.

Well first off, you've just told me you've not talked to cecil and/or soozen, so how do you know their feelings are hurt? It sounds to me like you're assuming they are ... and so you're reacting from your assumption.

Secondly, they can talk with me (or not) themselves; they can yell at me, call me names, etc. (even if you don't like it imo) and I'll keep myself open for them in case that's what they want. Or talking too, it that be what they want.

I know you don't want me to, or like, when I judge. I don't always, I did here, and stand by my it. I know you want me to budge on this one, but I'm sorry - no. I won't.

I understand that you see my thinking, and then saying that I think, cecil and soozen are racists is calling them names, an action of attack, and that this is upsetting you.

At best, I'll keep explaning (over and over) until I'm heard.

I could shut up and no longer say what I'm honestly thinking about things and hy. But that wouldn't change what I'm thinking and why ... it would only be me, silencing myself. And I know that's not what you want; and it's not what will help.

So ... this is it.

Name calling is unacceptable social behavior, in my opinion. And there IS something I can do about it if a conversation deteriorates to the point of childish name calling and judgementalness.

I agree. So much so, that when I saw the conversation in this thread - I came charging in and expressed my opinions and shared my thoughts and feelings.

But Doreen, if you (and everyone else here) can look upon the words and phrases that Imus uses and say that's acceptable and it's okay for him to do it because of free speech ...

Then why, when you say I'm calling people names, why then are you denying me the same 'right' of expression that you've given Imus (and those that support him)?

I can leave. I can refuse to participate in it.

So can I. I usually do. But this is important to me so I've made the commitment to stay as long as necessary.

I'll repeat... please read my initial posts to this thread if you haven't already. I wrote them when I was calm and I thought them out carefully.

Okay, that'll be next after this one. Even if others are replying to me, I'll put it first.

If you'd like to address the points I made in those threads, please do. If not, your prerogative, but unless you do, I can't continue this discussion myself.

I will reply to it. I didn't before because I saw it as you simply expressing yourself and I've never felt that just because someone is expressing themselves with things that differ from my own that I need to, or that it's always help, to reply and point out every difference. I've always felt it's best to let peoples opinions be there, what ever they are and that sometimes not commenting is best. And that's how I did your first post.

But now that I know you want me to reply to all you've said, give my opinions .. I will.

I very much appreciate you sharing news reports and opinion columns and links to what you find pertinent in the discussion and I very much appreciate you sharing your opinion on the topic.

Thank you. I do yours as well.

But I don't appreciate you judging people and calling them names.

I'm calling them 'names' (I voicing my opinion) and I'm going to keep judging so you're to be upset with me about both of those for as long as you're going to be upset with me.

AND I don't appreciate ANYBODY judging people and calling anybody names.

Well, maybe you should learn to appreciate it some; might make things easier on you.

I don't mean that it's not OK in my book to say "George Bush is an idiot".... But if he were having this conversation with us, it would be extremely inappropriate to call him such a name like that.

Inappropriate, sure - but a 'bad thing' ... hell no! but I'm biased.
~laughing~
(It's all subjective)

My take on the original topic is in my previous posts. This post here is simply a response to let you know that I don't accept certain things in my life. Judgements are one of them.

I don't mind being on the outskirts.

Thanks for listening.

You're welcome.

[Doreen Peri]

First off, I'm not going to go through your post and answer line by line. I don't have time to do that.

I take full responsibility for my participation in this thread and for anything I say anywhere. When I said "you pulled me in," it was an expression to say that because of the name calling and because you're talking about people who aren't even here to defend themselves, I felt compelled to participate. That's how I got pulled in. By things you've stated about other people.

I have no idea, you're right, whether you have hurt anybody's feelings. I DO, however, know that feelings get hurt when people call each other names. And yes, I consider calling someone a bigot, name-calling.

But it's not about whether people's feelings get hurt, is it? Because you don't care whether your statements hurt people's feelings or not. That's just part of my point.

The other part is that when people use name-calling in their discourse, essentially what they do is attack and accuse each other. I don't accept attacks and accusatory remarks. Not in my home. Not in my real life. NOt on the internet. Not anywhere.

But Doreen, if you (and everyone else here) can look upon the words and phrases that Imus uses and say that's acceptable and it's okay for him to do it because of free speech ...

Then why, when you say I'm calling people names, why then are you denying me the same 'right' of expression that you've given Imus (and those that support him)?

As I said before in one of my original posts, I wouldn't broadcast Imus on my station.

But I will defend his right to say what he wants ... (That doesn't mean I would broadcast him).

Does that make me a bigot? Seems like it would to you.

Similarly, I defend yours and everyone else's right to call people names if you want to but I defend my right to tell you not to do it here. This is my home and I don't like it when people call each other names. It's that simple.

I didn't shrug anything off. Using the word "shrug" on the internet in text is the same as shrugging in person. You shrug what you say oh well, accept it or don't. That's my opinion. Shrug.

Because you DID change the channel and choose not to listen to the guy, and they DIDN'T and did. Furthermore, they sat here supporting him in this thread and you didn't. You didn't even get involved until well after I arrived and stirred things up.

I also said in a previous post that I often find him funny. Remember that part? So, if I'm listening to him and being amused, I won't change the channel. If he uses shock-jock nonsense and I don't think it's funny, I'll change the channel. If you call Cecil a bigot just because he listens to the guy from time to time, then I deserve the same "label" or "name." A label IS a name.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Name-calling

From the above link

Name-calling is a form of ad hominem attack that draws a vague equivalence between a concept and a person, group or idea. By linking the person or idea being attacked to a negative symbol, the propagandist hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence.

Here's more about "ad hominem"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ad_hominem

That's exactly what you did when you called 2 of our members bigots.

[mnaz]

But Doreen, that also includes me not having to live up to your (and the other's here) ideas of how I should be talking and behaving and posting with you and the others here on this board.

(!!!!)

Umm, duhhh!

But you WERE being totally unfair and judgemental when you called Cecil and SooZen racists. Jesus Christ! Why would you SAY that?

"Because Cecil SooZen support Imus and Imus is a racist".

Just like that. OK folks, show's over!... disperse...

And Imus says he's not bigoted and racist either. He says he's not because he does good deeds in other ways and because he only acted that way because he was being paid to. I don't believe him either.

Me neither. Eventually.

Again, I'm open to changing my mind, but as of yet I haven't seen anything that gives me pause to.

Me neither.

But this is important to me so I've made the commitment to stay as long as necessary.

Good call.

I'm calling them 'names' (I voicing my opinion) and I'm going to keep judging so you're to be upset with me about both of those for as long as you're going to be upset with me.

Since when is calling of names considered legitimate "opinion"?
Please explain.

[whimsicaldeb]

Doreen, think this is the post you're referring to, the one you wanted me to reply; it's only I didn't reply to, so that's why I think it's this one.

So, here's my reply ...

Deb said

came, passed a judgment about people you care for, and further more my judgment was/is that they've came up short, and could/should do better.

Clearly, you do not like the outcome, or that I've done this (which requires a shared agreement of whether I should or shouldn't be judging others): but - now that I've done this; the question(s) then are: Was I accurate? Was/is my judgment sound?

I think I am being accurate and sound ... but if I'm not, and I'm wrong, I want to know.

In my opinion, I don't like it when people judge each other. That's my opinion so you wanted to know. People do it all the time, though, so what can I do about it?

Nothing really, ask them to stop, and hope they will ... but out side of banning people who don't do what you want them to do; nothing, but accept.

My father also always said, "If you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all." I thought Dad was a wise man.

My mom used to as well, and she was also wise ... and she told me it's a good rule of thumb. Helpful in making determinations. But - not a law that could not, or should not, be broken.

But hey, they world is filled with people who judge other people and if you want to do that, Deb, that's your prerogative. Just don't be surprised when you speak judgements that are negative about people and they react as if they've been offended.

Thank you, and I'm not (surprised) that others get offended.

If people say negative things about me, I hope they'll do it behind my back. I really don't want to know about it, frankly.

Interesting. and Different.

I hate it.. and I mean absolutely HATE it when someone tells me I "should" do anything or be anything and I particularly hate it when someone tells me I've "fallen short" and that I can be a better person than I am.

I'm just me, yanno? People who tell me stuff like that... well, I tell them "screw you. Who are you to judge me!?"

Good. Nothing wrong with that. It'd be boring if we all responded the same to things.

I had a friend once... he would always say to people in our little group of friends that he thought someone in the group (it didn't matter which one, which day, whoever was his choice to single out that day)... had "potential". "You have potential," he'd say and then continue describing all the areas where he thought they'd "fallen short" as a person. None of us liked this about him.

Was this at work? Or with some group you joined? Or just some guy that hung out with you and your friends at home? Because if this were happening to me, it would depend upon where & what and why; it was something to with/for work I'd suck up and deal, if it was within some group I joined, I speak up and tell the guy to not include me; and if it was at my home with friends I'd show him the door.

Once I went out with him alone to go see/hear some jazz music. I told him, "Gary, yanno when you say that potential crap, people get offended. In my opinion, you've fallen short of your potential by putting people down like that."

You went OUT with him! OMG Doreen, what were you thinking?

He didn't like that statement much. (I can imagine! ~ deb) I guess he was on the other side of what he was doing to other people and it didn't sit with him well. He got up from the bar and left me there. He had driven so I had to take a cab back home.

He got you back. But why did you go out with him in the first place, especially knowing how he was? I mean, what were you expecting?

I didn't communicate with him for many years after that. Apparently my statement offended him. It was sad because I really liked him a lot.

Probably - and 'oh'

Years later, I got in touch with him. He had had a major car accident. He was lucky to be alive. I wonder now if he still says things to people like that. I hope not.

As I said, Deb, I consider you a friend. I'm not trying to say anything negative to you. I'm only trying to say that THIS fits EXACTLY into what the theme of this thread is... into what YOU are defending.

Not exactly ... I'm not a guy, I'm not that guy, were not dating, and I'm not walking away and leaving you stranded because you're telling me this. I'm here, standing my ground in attempts to work things out.

I did indeed say in this thread that concerning this subject (to all) and to hester the way she handles things) could be done better ... and I stand by those; still.

I'm still here, and still saying it.

Many people do not like being told what they should or should do, or what you could or couldn't do better. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be said anyway.

someone telling another something they'd rather not be hearing is not automatically someone being disrespectful.

When I do it here, I know it does meant I better be willing and able to take the heat when I do ... and I am.

WORDS are powerful. People should be careful when they speak because offending people is not what the goal of a discussion should be.

Yes

Do you think Imus gives a shit if he offends people with his words? Probably not because he's just joking! It's schtick!

No, he doesn't give a damn, but he should. And my assumption is, if others give a damn, then why are they supporting those who don't.

I know my words and actions are offending, and I do care (and am taking care as I do this) - and what's baffling to you/others is why then am I not stopping. I'm doing it anyway. It's because I think keeping silence is the wrong thing in this situation.

Also, I'm not denying any of this (like Imus does); and unlike Imus - I'm not doing a 'schtick' ... this is not me 'acting' and I'm not joking/making fun either.

But when people are NOT joking... when they are serious with their words, judgementalness can be taken seriously by those who are judged and that's not funny at all.

Exactly what I thought and felt when I read hesters beginning post. Exactly what I'm meaning now.

My 2¢.

And as my Dad also used to say, "Can we move on?" ... lol

I sure hope ... I think we can. I think we are.

hey, do whatever you want.. I'm just talking as a PERSON here, not as the owner of this site or anything. Just to let you know. I have a HARD time participating on my own site because I think people here think I'm the COP or something like that.

Well, first off; were talking to me before as "the owner of this site" before; because you didn't make that clear and this whole posted sounded to me as if it was just you, Doreen the PERSON, talking to me.

If you, as the owner of this site, are telling me how to and how not to post on your board, then I'm telling you ... it's probably best if you ban me. Because otherwise you're always going to be frustrated with me when I show up and post.

As for the other part: "I have a HARD time participating on my own site because I think people here think I'm the COP or something like that."

Well.... That's because sometimes you act like it, and because you ARE the cop of your own board. It's necessary to be.

However, after reading everything on this site, I realize how you might take my saying you are a cop on your own board as a 'negative' comment about yourself; and how you prefer it that others say negative things about you behind your back instead of directly to you, and how I don't like or believe in talking about others behind their back and I don't think my comment is negative ... I'm probably screwed. In one of those damned if you do, and damned it don't places.

So - since I'm going to get damned no matter (~laughing~) what... I'm choosing getting damn for doing it!

Carry on and say whatever you want. I just expressed my opinion, that's all. Since you said you'd like to know, I told you what I thought.

Well, I hope you mean that ... and ... me too.

[mnaz]

Clearly, you do not like the outcome, or that I've done this (which requires a shared agreement of whether I should or shouldn't be judging others): but - now that I've done this; the question(s) then are: Was I accurate? Was/is my judgment sound? I think I am being accurate and sound ... but if I'm not, and I'm wrong, I want to know.

Perhaps.

Caustic, though.

See Article 1C:

No, he doesn't give a damn, but he should. And my assumption is, if others give a damn, then why are they supporting those who don't.

..

See now, that is caustic!

Go Deb!

I know my words and actions are offending, and I do care (and am taking care as I do this) - and what's baffling to you/others is why then am I not stopping. I'm doing it anyway. It's because I think keeping silence is the wrong thing in this situation.

Go Deb!

Slice to smithereens your known world, suddenly!... Yeeaah!

... it's probably best if you ban me.

WRONG! What a cop out.

[whimsicaldeb]

First off, I'm not going to go through your post and answer line by line. I don't have time to do that.

I certainly understand that ... I know how much time it took. I did it for you because you asked me too because you felt I handn't heard you. Or, that's how it sounded to me.

I take full responsibility for my participation in this thread and for anything I say anywhere. When I said "you pulled me in," it was an expression to say that because of the name calling and because you're talking about people who aren't even here to defend themselves, I felt compelled to participate. That's how I got pulled in. By things you've stated about other people.

Thank you for explaining.

I have no idea, you're right, whether you have hurt anybody's feelings. I DO, however, know that feelings get hurt when people call each other names. And yes, I consider calling someone a bigot, name-calling.

thank you for acknowledging where I'm right. I understand that you don't want me calling cecil and soozen bigots on your board (or racist, etc). I will tone it down... but I can't promise you that I won't say that I think they are in the future. I will stay mindful of your feelings regarding it however and since I've already stated it - once is enough for me and I don't need to say it over & over again.

If we drop this and move on ... my 'name calling' as you see it ... will stop as well.

But it's not about whether people's feelings get hurt, is it? Because you don't care whether your statements hurt people's feelings or not. That's just part of my point.

Not true. I do care, and I do understand your point.

You're probably wondering why, if I knew it could hurt hester/cecil/soozen, why then did I say it anyway.

You told that one guy (in the other thread) that how you felt belittle by his telling you and others that they weren't measuring up. I bet that was hard, and I'm sure it hurt him (he left immediately right?) But you did it anyway ... why? Because you knew in your heart it was the right thing to do, because other wise he would never stop doing it; but by speaking up about it to him .. you gave opportunity, he might just have heard what you were saying ...and stop. You took a chance. It didn't pay off ... but you took the chance anyway.

That's what I'm doing, here, now. This is where mousey1 and others would say I'm being righteous and holy. Maybe so. I'm taking the chance ... maybe it will pay off.

The other part is that when people use name-calling in their discourse, essentially what they do is attack and accuse each other. I don't accept attacks and accusatory remarks. Not in my home. Not in my real life. NOt on the internet. Not anywhere.

But Doreen, if you (and everyone else here) can look upon the words and phrases that Imus uses and say that's acceptable and it's okay for him to do it because of free speech ...

Then why, when you say I'm calling people names, why then are you denying me the same 'right' of expression that you've given Imus (and those that support him)?

As I said before in one of my original posts, I wouldn't broadcast Imus on my station.

But I will defend his right to say what he wants ... (That doesn't mean I would broadcast him).

Does that make me a bigot? Seems like it would to you. (no, it wouldn't - sign - wrong again)

Similarly, I defend yours and everyone else's right to call people names if you want to but I defend my right to tell you not to do it here. This is my home and I don't like it when people call each other names. It's that simple.

I didn't shrug anything off. Using the word "shrug" on the internet in text is the same as shrugging in person. You shrug what you say oh well, accept it or don't. That's my opinion. Shrug.

Because you DID change the channel and choose not to listen to the guy, and they DIDN'T and did. Furthermore, they sat here supporting him in this thread and you didn't. You didn't even get involved until well after I arrived and stirred things up.

I also said in a previous post that I often find him funny. Remember that part? (actually no - I thought the opposite, that you didn't - my bad)So, if I'm listening to him and being amused, I won't change the channel. If he uses shock-jock nonsense and I don't think it's funny, I'll change the channel. If you call Cecil a bigot just because he listens to the guy from time to time, then I deserve the same "label" or "name." A label IS a name.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Name-calling

From the above link

Name-calling is a form of ad hominem attack that draws a vague equivalence between a concept and a person, group or idea. By linking the person or idea being attacked to a negative symbol, the propagandist hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence.

Here's more about "ad hominem"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ad_hominem

That's exactly what you did when you called 2 of our members bigots.

I'm not trying to turn people against cecil and soozen; or hester, or jack or anyone here. And you're right, bigot/racist are negative things.

[Doreen Peri]

Perfect example of how the internet is so FAR from being anything close to a perfect vehicle for communication that it's obvious how sometimes people miscommunicate and read "bigot" into a few posted lines.

What am I talking about?

I'm talking about you saying

You went OUT with him! OMG Doreen, what were you thinking?

Yeah I went out with him. I went out with him a lot of times. As I SAID.. he was my FRIEND. And as I also said, we had a group of friends.

I didn't say anything about work. I didn't say I knew him from work. I didn't mention anything like that but you're wondering why I would go out with someone

especially knowing how he was? I mean, what were you expecting?

Geesh.

He was how he was. Actually, he was very much like YOU which is why I brought him up to begin with. We were friends. A group of people met at his house on many occasions and hung out and partied and listened to music and talked about everything we talk about here.

Somehow during these social events, my friend would turn to someone in the group and single them out (as I said) and tell them they had "potential" and point out what he perceived as their flaws.

Like saying, "You listen to IMUS? You must be a BIGOT! How could you listen to Imus? I like a lot about you but this particular thing tells me that you need to evolve and become enlightened and stop listening to him. You have POTENTIAL but I don't accept you because you listen to Imus."

LOL!!!! Laughing here, too, ok? Actually that would not be the "voice" he'd use... but I'm trying to make a point. You have a lot in common with him. He was judgemental and it put people off. It made people uncomfortable to be around him sometimes.

People don't like to be told what other people's opinion of them are. Truly they don't. I don't give a flying FUCK what you think of me, Deb, even though I love ya. I don't know if that makes sense to you but it does to me.

I didn't give a shit what my friend thought of me either. I accepted him as as he was and I expected him to accept me for who I am. But there came a time when I needed to tell him that his routine of telling people they had "potential" got people irritated. As a friend, I thought he should know that when he judged people like that, it wasn't nice. It was just plain NOT NICE.

So this little story shows me that you can (just like anybody can... YOU, meaning the grand YOU)... read between the lines, come to conclusions from the text that isn't even there.

Why did I go out with him? I went out with him because he was my friend. Shrug. There's another shrug for ya. Nothing more. Nothing less. He was my friend so I went out with him.

And that's just ridiculous... Ban you? Jesus. NO, I'm not going to ban you! Why do people ask me to do that? That's just plain ridiculous.

Yeah, you can say what you want here but we DO have ONE rule and the rule is RESPECT. It's a simple rule.

IMO reading between the lines into the fact that Cecil likes the Imus show sometimes and coming to some absolutely bogus conclusion that because he does, he's a bigot, is just like wondering why I went out with my friend.

Frickin text. I hate the internet sometimes. How can you read into it that anybody is a bigot? You mean ALL the entire audience of people who enjoy the Imus show are bigots????? You've got to be kidding!

I said

I don't care for it when people are judgemental. I don't like name calling. and I am NOT holding you to any higher standard than anyone else.

I don't like it when ANYBODY does it. Not in my personal life in real life and not on the net. EVER.

You answered,

Okay. I hear you, I get it, you don't like it.

But ~ I'm still going to do anyway.
So ~ now what?

You tell me. What now?

If you want to go ahead and judge me and say I act like a cop on the boards sometimes, go right ahead. Whatever.

I think this is one of the most open boards I've ever participated in on the internet. Free speech abounds.

There's only ONE rule. Remember what it is?

Respect each other.

Am I a cop for setting that rule? You really think so? Go ahead and judge me all you want but here's the deal...This is my home. As I said.

You are all cordially invited. But I expect you to treat each other with respect or I'm not throwing the party any more. *shrug* again. Just my thoughts, yanno?

[Doreen Peri]

One last thought.

I play scrabble online. I play every night. They have a rule that you can't mention any names in the lobby. You can't say "so-in-so" uses an anagram program to cheat. Or "so-in-so" quit on me. Or anything else like that.

Scrabble is like life. It's a game. People play fair for the most part. Other people don't. But they have a rule not to name names when talking in pubilc. It keeps a community atmosphere. I like it.

In other words, couldn't you have maybe said, "Anybody who listens to the Imus show and enjoys it is probably bigoted" rather than naming names, singling out our members, and accusing them of something they are not?

You're entitled to your opinion but sometimes it's best to keep it to yourself.

Obviously I'm riled over this whole thing, yeah. It's almost 3am here and I've been typing this stuff back and forth with you for hours.

I need to go to sleep now.

Talk to you tomorrow.

Love,
D

[whimsicaldeb]

mnaz - Saw your posts and I have no replies.
It's late, I'm heading off to bed.
~later everyone~

Oh - Doreen - you posted when I was ... I'm adding this edit.
I read your post. I think we're actually making progress.
Yes ~ scrabble is like life.
Lets sleep on it and see where we go in the morning.

--and--
"Anybody who listens to the Imus show and enjoys it is probably bigoted" works for me!

Niters

[Doreen Peri]

mnaz.. that quote was my suggestion ... see my post above deb's..
but you probably already knew that... omg.. i said i was going to sleep but now it's tomorrow already

lol
goodnight, goodmorning

[mnaz]

Yes.

I stole a quote of a quote, which I shall not repeat here,
because let's face it, I'm in big trouble at this point...

[hester_prynne]

Deb wrote:
"And in the process I did indeed disrupt and knock a few of you out of your comfort zones. And I'm glad I did ... look how much is being learned, that wouldn't have even been being talked about at all if I hadn't. "

Deb, I think this statement is probably delusions of grandeur on your part.
You know, I've learned alot from you in this thread, as well as alot from Doreen, Mnaz, Mousey, Jimbo, and Still.

I have to say that what I have learned about you Deb, is to steer mostly clear of you for the benefit of all.
From others on this thread, i.e., Doreen, Mousey, Mnaz, Still, I have learned that I am going to be treated with respect, regardless of whether or not they agree with my passions, my bad jokes, my ignorance, my brilliance, my charm, my annoying sensitivity, unbearable lightness of being, etc. I have learned that online and or in real life, they are the people I want to be near to, to be faithful to, to trust and learn from. Because they will accept me as me, without putting me down, without putting words in my mouth, and without stereotyping me.
I need them.
I want people just like them in my life very much. They are the ones who help me become enlightened the most.
Not you.
We're different and I can accept that. I am sorry that I was rude a couple of times in response to what I perceived as unjust hammerings from you. I try to be better than that, yet I failed a couple of times in this thread. This does not mean I am agreeing with, or praising in any way your conduct on this thread, because i'm not, so don't go getting all big headed.
I am however, offering a hand of truce in the spirit of civility.
Some of your stuff I have truly enjoyed in the studio, none of which, however, is on this particular thread.
Sincerely,
H

[whimsicaldeb]

I am however, offering a hand of truce in the spirit of civility.

Accepted

[jimboloco]

evidently some folks don't think Imus's statement was all that bad
some folks do

and this was spozed to be what the conversation was about

and it is a passionate subject

hope i can learn from this and try to not descend into florid hyperbole
but hey
we're still breathing
mercy


http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinione ... 36910.html
mal color

[Doreen Peri]

Lets sleep on it and see where we go in the morning.

I slept on it. Here's where I am this morning..... tired. Exhausted.

Hey, if I spent as much of my spare time on the BOOK (remember that?), maybe it would be done now.

.....

But to go back to the topic at hand (well, the sub-topic which is really the SAME topic as the topic)... what's OK to say and what's not OK to say, we really only dealt with ONE level of that last night and it took hours and hours.

The level we dealt with is name-calling – naming the names of members and accusing them of something NOT NICE relative to the topic of the discussion in an attempt to make a point in a debate.

I'm pretty sure we've now agreed, Deb, that it's not a good thing to do and that nobody here will continue doing it.

We didn't yet deal with another level of name-calling on this thread where hurtful personal attacks were made which had absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread.

You all know what I'm referring to if you have been reading or participating in this thread.

Please no more. And this time I'm speaking as the owner of the site. I'm censoring you. Why? Because this is my site and I don't want to broadcast people's personal assaults on each other.

If you want to call each other names and insult each other on a personal level, you can do it in chat or by email or on some other website that allows that type of thing.

hester said

Because they will accept me as me, without putting me down, without putting words in my mouth, and without stereotyping me.
I need them.
I want people just like them in my life very much. They are the ones who help me become enlightened the most.

Thank you, hest. Yes, you are accepted and I would never put you down. That was a lovely post. Your apology for being "rude a couple of times" is accepted. I do very much think that you are also owed an apology. Bigtime.

Jimbo - funny cartoon!

....
On other boards they have a rule that you have to "stay on topic." Normal conversations in real life don't stay on topic. They waver from the topic. But after this thread, I can see why those forum owners decided to make such a rule. Personal attacks which have nothing to do with the topic are off topic.

I hate talking "as the owner of the site" but I have to sometimes. This is one of those times.

I truly think people can have intelligent discussions & passionate debates without lashing out at each other with personal insults.

Call me a nazi or whatever you want to call me but do it behind my back, not here.

I'm doing what I told myself I wouldn't do. I'm playing the "I'm the owner of the site" card. Please no more personal attacks and if someone personally attacks you, feel free to defend yourself without personal attacks in return.

Just an idea... quote the attacker and make it clear that saying things like that about you is not accepted.... by you .... and by the site.