called a traitor by a rabid right winger,the complete thread

[Arcadia]

do you want some chili, jimbo?

talking seriously, I think your answer to Ms Hawkinggs was very sincere and respetuosa. None of us can change others head insulting them.

[jimboloco]

I want some green chili, amiga.

Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
your left wing libralist mumbo jumbo doesn't even deserve an answer.
Under your name you should sign
-USA Traitor

and so I sent this to her, along with Bcc to several local amigos:


"The MINUTE someone impugns your patriotism for opposing this war, turn on them like a snarling dog and explain what loving your country really means." Molly Ivans, a Texas columnist wrote that just before she died. http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/1/2006/1304
(thanks to jacko tiles)

Lynn
You gotta know you pissed me off, me, who flew into every artillery base in South Vietnam, 2, 3, 4 corps, from Bac Lieu to Dak Pek, who ferried live soldiers forward to battle, and carried dead, ones back to the morgue, me, who devoted myself to patriotism at an early age and followed through by actually learning something about my country's history, who put my life on the line and then displayed another kind of courage in speaking out about the Vietnam War and the tragic cost to America and to those people over there.

I spoke out in a newspaper interview at university in 1974, read by my classmates in graduate school, who would have never have heard a dissenting opinion if it were not for me. I spoke out on campus there, in 1972, confronting the very AFROTC students who were telling me that they wanted to bomb Hanoi to set our brothers free, yet did not see that lemming like obedience to command authority got them there in the first place, in a war based upon lies and bad judgments, so I spoke out there, and got a senator on my side, who voted to end the bombing, and so my brother AFROTC compadre, who I went thru college with and saw in Vietnam shortly before his capture was returned home unharmed, because we Vietnam Veterans against the War had the patriotic courage to stand up to Richard Nixon and his political calculating and insist that we get our brothers home.

I am a patriot, and I own my flag and you can not take it away from me, you small minded selfish petty insensitive idiot

My country is a great country that can tell the difference between right and wrong, that encourages political debate, that wants its citizens to be informed, that does NOT allow itself to be controlled by special interests, .the grandiose money making scheming of the chicken hawk neo-cons types, whose overflowing bank accounts are immune to the common man and woman.

You just spat on a Vietnam Veteran.

I am taking my country back from the likes of you, the ignorant, the foolish, the brainwashed, the frozen hearted, the self-righteous morons who are the most dangerous to democracy, who have no respect for fellow citizens, only those who shut up and salute as the flag draped coffins go by.

You can go to hell.

Jim

(and thank you Miss Molly and thankyou Texas trucker, holding the flood waters back!)

[jimboloco]

Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
You all spit on soldiers of this war.

I was attacked by over 10 people of your so called PEACE group for having MY opinion.
PERSONALLY, I think I held out quit sometime before I turned like a snarling DOG.

GET A LIFE. There is NO disrespect for your service to this country. OBVIOUSLY I have very STRONG emotions and loyalty to our soldiers or I wouldn't waste my time.

DO not contact me again. I am JUST as entitled to MY freedom as YOU. If for any minute you dont think that is so, then our country is in trouble. As you said this is a democracy. that means MAJORITY RULES.

On 7/10/07, J W<opusmaximus2050> wrote:
Lynn
You are sadly mistaken.
never call me or anyone of my veteran friends or my anti-war protestor friends a traitor. That is the ultimate insult and injustice.
Our soldiers are being mis-used by lying manipulating profiteers whose real agenda is to control Iraqi oil for the multinational corporations. You can have your independent opinion, but NEVER question the patriotism or love of country of anyone who opposes the Iraq war.
I have a life, no thanks to you or to your kind, you are so closed minded that you would waste all the soldiers before questioning the authority that placed them in harms way.
I did not have a life for many years after coming home from Vietnam because I spoke out and felt guilty about it. A Marine told me that I had the right to a good live and so I rebuilt mine, after much struggle and effort. I am a cancer RN, and have the best group of people to work with, regardless of their political opinions, and I finally got married at age 52, and I bought a house at age 56, and I am strong, healthy and resilient, at 60, and I am a patriot who thinks that your opinion of anti-war protesters is hateful, not to mention dangerous for democracy. You are stupid to think that I am spitting on these soldiers. no, I spit on you, the uninformed, the abuser of soldiers, the true coward, who hides behind false patriotism the last refuge of scoundrels.
I want my military to be proud, well served, and well serving, and we intend to see to it that this happens.
Good luck Lynn, I will pray that you get a clue. PS the majority will rule and take over from the lackeys who put your fine brother over there and will make a change all the better for him and for the USA.
I will never again be intimidated by the likes of you, and I thank you for that.
Jim

Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
You have let the left wing liberal fanatics that are ruining our country brain wash you...
I will pray YOU get a clue.

On 7/10/07, J W<opusmaximus2050> wrote:
You get the last word, sister. Peace be with you.

[Arcadia]

well said jimbo!. The whole thread looks like a beatiful mix of indimedia discussions and trungpa training the mind!

[jimboloco]

Tu tienes la última palabra, hermana.
my gawd. Viva Naropa! Viva Trungpa!

Stay strong, Jim. Molly would be proud...

Peace,
Meredith

(thankyou mr tiles)
"The MINUTE someone impugns your patriotism for opposing this war, turn on them like a snarling dog and explain what loving your country really means." Molly Ivans, a Texas columnist wrote that just before she died. http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/1/2006/1304

[bohonato]

As you said this is a democracy. that means MAJORITY RULES.

The latest USA Today/Gallup poll states that 70% of Americans want the majority of troops home by April, and that 66% disapprove of George W. Bush as president.

Just saying.

[hester_prynne]

I reallly enjoyed reading this thread, locoboyjim. It strikes me, to read Ms. Hawkins statements. They lead me to daydreaming about where such "fervor" comes from. I've had the "fervors" before but they always manifested themselves more in liberal, open, rebellious."Hippie" directions, peace by any means. Ms. Hawkins is holding tight to some imagined or ingrained "it's the right, or American thing to do" belief. The belief that America is Number 1 no matter what, Harrumphh!
I sympathize with her distress around her brother, you want him to be doing something right or American.

It's been and continues to be a hard truth for me to accept, that wars are really not patriotic at all, they are about money, business and and greed driven insanity. I can hardly stand to write it.
But seeing is believing no matter how horrific it is to see. It doesn't come easy. It's disappointing, frightening, to have something that held you up for so long, just tumble, disappear, into a trick, a bad taste in your heart.
From the Native American travesty to Vietnam, was war ever really based on the Greatness of our Country?
I dont' know if this makes sense to you. In a roundabout way of I just want to say that the way you expressed your responses was really informed , unsettlingly truthful, while also very caring. It's really effective, in making the jolt of accepting the truth about war a little easier.
Great read, really
H

[jimboloco]

I agree that responding with allternative patriotic fervor is disquieting to me, as stilltrucking says, not really acutely patriotic, annd i was spewing frothy spittle, i got to get away from thhat and be a more humane listener,

if we ever have a "patriotic" or just war, it will have to be in collusion with a larger international community, and limited as hell, otherwise, as has recently been acknowledged, we will bbe killing more civiilians than the "enemy" does, as in Afghanistan.

the west as model for manifest destiny was what we tried in vietnam, little "forts" all over, called them firebases, yes indeed, and we practiced ecocide as well, destroying territory and depopulating it as a way to control large areas of terrain, criminal.

hester, i appreciate your kind words, hard for me to feel a part of anything, still working my way back home after all these years, time for a mystical reverberation

michigan trucker, let's hope that this rejection of the iraq war as tragic policy will be a gateway intoo new horizons and more rational being.

thanks to molly, wherever you are

[mtmynd]

lynn hawkins: "I was attacked by over 10 people of your so called PEACE group for having MY opinion."

that word "opinion"... that's about all she has, an opinion. we all have opinions. but what she seems to not have a clue about is having an opinion does not mean someone that has the facts is not voicing an 'opinion' but the facts. large difference. and one that is easily dis'ed by opinionated people. they think having 'their' opinion is just as valid as someone that has the facts. but our freedom of speech allows (and should allow) for our speech to reflect our own opinions despite the fact that opinions at times become 'a crown of thorns' upon wisdom... something that is unfortunately very foreign to far too many. wisdom is sorely lacking in our modern culture, lost in the cacophony of opinions.

your 'opinions,' as i read them, are based on facts and not simply an opinion. i understand your frustration in answering this woman. your wisdom of knowing the facts of this war, the VN war and all that has transpired during these times regarding war and it's casualties, is the utter futility of getting others to understand the facts and not be enamored with the opinions.

((good thread, jimbo...))

[stilltrucking]

If only our government supported our troops

With all the various problem issues in Washington DC today, after 5 years of war, the country should not be continuing to hear about a lack of properly armored military vehicles.

With the already enormous cost of this war, it's hard to believe that the reason for this vehicle shortage is a shortage of available money for their purchase. I guess it's OK to send soldiers, but not to send them with the proper tools. Back in WW II, the concept was to spend the money for whatever arms & military equipment was needed, before you spend the troops. But without even considering the obvious harm that is done to the American families for the loss of a son, daughter, husband or wife, pragmatically it still takes 20 years to replace just one US soldier. They seemed to have forgotten that concept.

Why Not Use Armored Humvees?:

As the insurgents have continued to improve the effectiveness of the IED (Improvised Explosive Device) and now the more deadly EFP's (Explosive Formed Penetrators), the standard Humvees are virtually useless. One of the reasons is that both the Humvee and the M1114 (the armored version of the Humvee) personnel carriers can barely handle the extra armor that they have had to add and they are also flat-bottomed vehicles. The war in Iraq has basically made the Humvee obsolete. The newer MRAP vehicles have armored "V" shaped bottoms that can deflect a blast. This will leave a passenger shaken, but still alive.

Currently in Iraq:

About half of the Marine's combat vehicles in Iraq are the now obsolete Humvees. The Humvees are associated with 60% of their combat deaths and 65% of their combat wounded. The attacks on the V-bottomed armored vehicles have resulted in only 2.1% of combat deaths and 3.5% of their combat wounded.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articl ... leID=21440

[jimboloco]

yeah i would wanna v shaped undercarriage
it's a fact that money has been made by humV corporation
and they need dough to replace the current unVundergarriaged vehicles
mercy
the surviving soldiers of the iraq war are a slumbering proletariat
who knows where it wil lead?

[stilltrucking]

Achilles In Vietnam by a surgeon who served in Vietnam
He talks about the violation of what a soldier believes is "what is right"

Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (Paperback)
by Jonathan Shay (Author) "We begin in the moral world of the soldier-what his culture understands to be right-and betrayal of that moral order by a commander..."

http://www.amazon.com/Achilles-Vietnam- ... 0684813211