Russell's Teapot Analogy

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Totenkopf

Russell's Teapot Analogy

Post by Totenkopf » September 28th, 2007, 2:13 pm

Dawkins uses a passage from Bertrand Russell's "Is There a God?" in his "The God Delusion". The analogy has irritated more than a few fundies and xtians, and not without reason: it is not only witty, but based on a rather sound argument. Bertie demonstrates that xtians who believe in "God" merely because He cannot be conclusively disproven to exist are guilty of committing the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy:

Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of skeptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

A few Christians claim the analogy is irrelevant, and typical of the Russellian or Dawkinsesque scoffer. (this is only one of many anti-theological arguments made by Russell, of course). While I think the xtians who object to the analogy are ultimately mistaken, they may have a point--yet that point holds only in regards to the somewhat whimsical quality of the language, not to the argument itself. Yes, it's a bit Lewis Carroll-like--regardless, the Teapot Analogy demonstrates the Ad Ignorantium type of argument of some theists (and even sophisticated theologians).

Here's one grumble about the Teapot analogy from a theist and fairly well-known conservative blogger, Billy the Maverick Philosopher:

http://maverickphilosopher.powerblogs.c ... 1433.shtml

Quote:
But the real appeal to atheists and agnostics of the Teapot passage rests on a third move Russell makes. He is clearly suggesting that belief in God (i.e., belief that God exists) is epistemically on a par with believing in a celestial teapot. Just as we have no reason to believe in celestial teapots, irate lunar unicorns (lunicorns?), flying spaghetti monsters, and the like, we have no reason to believe in God. But perhaps we should distinguish between a strong and a weak reading of Russell's suggestion:


S. Just as we cannot have any reason to believe that an empirically undetectable celestial teapot exists, we cannot have any reason to believe that God exists.


W. Just as we do not have any reason to believe that a celestial teapot exists, we do not have any reason to believe that God exists.


Now it seems to me that both (S) and (W) are plainly false: we have all sorts of reasons for believing that God exists. Here Alvin Plantinga sketches about two dozen theistic arguments. Atheists will not find them compelling, of course, but that is irrelevant. The issue is whether a reasoned case can be made for theism, and the answer is in the affirmative. Belief in God and in Russell's teapot are therefore not on a par since there are no empirical or theoretical reasons for believing in his teapot.

Another suggestion embedded in the Russell passage is the notion that if God existed, he would be just another physical thing in the physical universe. But of course this has nothing to do with anything maintained by any sophisticated theist. God is a purely spiritual being.
We believe Billy the Maverick Philosopher to be rather mistaken: and that his (S) formulation of the analogy is a rather powerful, and even scientific objection to any arguments for God, however whimsically stated (and instead of Teapot, one could instantiate Zeus, or flying spaghetti monster, or perhaps an incredibly powerful alien who resides in the Teapot).

Moreover, Billy the MP, while correctly pointing out the Ad Ignorantium fallacy that Russell attacks as a typical xtian sort of pseudo-argument, doesn't quite understand all the implications of the analogy, especially the implications of the following passage:
But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.


That is the real issue, however mundane: shouldn't humans be allowed to doubt--strongly doubt-- the existence of some supposed X which cannot be observed, inferred, nor empirically proven to exist? (nor, quite arguably, proven deductively or mathematically). That is the crux of Russell's analogy: not only that "God" cannot be proven to exist, but that we are not, according to xtian tradition, even to doubt His existence given that lack of proof. The noun "teapot" is not the point. Make it "JHVH in a spaceship" (perhaps teapot-sized), and the argument still holds.


Even if we agreed that Russell's analogy was, in terms of language and imagery, incredibly rude, blasphemous, obscene (""the reduction of the Almighty to a Teapot??!! Preposterous. To the dungeon!""), that does not negate the force of the argument.

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » October 14th, 2007, 6:54 am

the existence of some supposed X which cannot be observed, inferred, nor empirically proven to exist? (nor, quite arguably, proven deductively or mathematically).

Image
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I always liked this bit from Nietzsche probably mangled by my geezer memory
"man would sooner have the void for a purpose, than be void of purpose"

I like the idea of god as a teapot
and then we go to that big tea party in the sky.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-S3c1U4FPA


the link below was posted in responce to the link above.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CPMzXFwEeE

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » October 15th, 2007, 7:39 am

Correction


Sorry Professor
I got the links wrong

this is the one
that was being replied to
Mayan Calendar resume
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zb4p_D7Nwo

not this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-S3c1U4FPA

Totenkopf

Post by Totenkopf » December 8th, 2007, 4:17 pm

The central point of the Teapot analogy concerns the burden of proof:
theists (even subtle & clever ones who quote e-marxist texts and write lots of hip leftist poesy) are the ones making the claims for out-of-the-ordinary and/or supernatural reality; thus they are the ones who should prove the existence of a monotheistic god and associated theology ( Russell realized that was unfeasible--as did even Kant over 2 centuries ago--, but the clever theist then shifts the burden to the skeptic and asks him to disprove the out of ordinary claim--taking that "ad ignorantium" as some type of proof itself).

Indeed it's fair to say that most Americuns assume a Russell (or modern Russell like Dawkins) be a sort of skeptical oddball, while accepting if not approving of the average preacher or priest. That's life in post-Reagan Xtian America: the thinking of the Founding fathers probably closer to Russell's sort of informed doubt (as was say a Woodrow Wilson, to some degree).

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e_dog
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Post by e_dog » December 20th, 2007, 8:12 pm

There are so WMDs!

Sorry, sport.
Russell's argument is inconsistent with Popperian fallibilism model of science not just religion. Hypothesize. Refute. H

(Has Russell refuted the God 'pothesis? Maybe elsewhere....)

Or Quine, the gods are as real as quarks if they form a coherent system....

You can't "prove" that God exists nor can you "disprove" it -- you can disprove that certain types of god exists, e.g. an omniscient, omnipotent, all-benevolent god is disproven by the paradox of evil, try as pseudo-rationalist Christians might to reconcile.

The main point is that arguments are irrelevant. Nothing is sillier than belief in God, except perhaps Russell and Dawkins trying to argue with believers.

Totenkopf

Post by Totenkopf » December 20th, 2007, 10:41 pm

Wouldn't Popper say that religious dogma is not falsifiable? That's a bit different. I grant your point slightly--only in regards to religious dogma as not solely a matter of fact or even proof.

Yet some theologians (and philosophy types, like Russell) do debate Design, a type of empirical (or inductive) argument, which could be viewed as falsifiable to some degree. At the very least theists claim "God exists" in some way, so Russell saying "where"? Theologians, or some of 'em, assert Design is apparent but nature obviously does not offer any clear proof of some benevolent Deity (the traditional God of ju-xtianity). How about the Black Plague? Sign of the Luv of Jeeee-zusss? Doubtful. Or wars for that matter.

The other point that Russell correctly raises concerned the burden of proof: it's not up to skeptics to disprove "God" exists, but for theists and believers to prove that He does (or persuade people some how, right??). All somewhat strange (a semantic problem, as much as empirical issue: what mean you by "God" ?? In some sense not even a meaningful word. It's about as meaningful as "infinity").
You can't "prove" that God exists nor can you "disprove" it -- you can disprove that certain types of god exists, e.g. an omniscient, omnipotent, all-benevolent god is disproven by the paradox of evil, try as pseudo-rationalist Christians might to reconcile.
Xtian rationalists believe they have arguments that will overcome the problem of Evil. I tend to agree that they CANNOT overcome (not only witchoo, but with say Voltaire, and even Russell) the Problem of Evil, but THEY believe it can be. One way it could be overcome would be via some redemption argument (where say people killed injustly --like a tidal wave, or maybe war, etc.---are somehow compensated in the afterlife (that's what some religious people say). So given immaterial premises (ie Soul, God, afterlife) they could argue against the apparent Problem of Evil (while holding to say given, even human views of Justice as "goodness", benevolence, peace, etc.) . I don't happen to agree (since there are no convincing arguments for a soul either), but some clever theists argue that way.

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