Science v. God

[stilltrucking]

weird it just wont kick over to the next page

as if my post self immolate



consciousness is the tip of the iceberg
it seems to count for little in the these days of mass media manipulation
just an evlountionary dead end maybe
group consciousness is in
individuals are pesky
consider the ant

finally on page three

[bennie2]

I think that if you believe there is a god, there probably is one. Should that be 'One'?

I also think you have every right to believe whatever you like and I further believe that you have every right to voice your views/beliefs/thoughts.

In my opinion, however, religious belief is nothing more than blind faith in ancient folklore and the silly superstitions of our ancestors; people who were even dumber than we are today. I think religion is a control tool, much the same as government; they both serve a similar function in society. Indeed, in some countries religion is the government. People are herded and fenced according to the dogma subscribed to by that particular faith.

As a devout atheist (i practice it religiously, etc...) the most hilarious thing about religion is that there are so many of them. I guess the Holy Land is so called because there are about 80,000 different types of "holy" being peddled there. My god is better than your god. Oh no, i think you'll find that the invisible man we worship is far superior to the piss and wind merchant that you salute with prayer... etc. And they kill each other because of it. That is the hilarious thing to me. And it's self-perpetuating. This hatred and intolerance is past on to your children, which brings up another of my thoughts on religion, that it is all simply tradition. Misinformation past down through the generations to control and console.

The seed of religion is a gorgeous thing.
The rules of engagement brought down from the mountain
in carved stone tablets in moses' arm

Don't be bad to people because that's not the way you want to be treated, is it? (that's my quick capsule interpritation of the 10 commandments).

It's a nice thing to believe. So far as I know, all religion "teaches" (read: tells) you to "be excellent to each other", so, maybe my issue with religion is actually with the people who take it out of context or, rather, take it in its most literal context. Silly little factions who burn crosses in the gardens of black "neighbours", hoplessly misguided fools who protest at the funerals of gay soldiers, not because they were off killing people, oh no, apparently the bible has nothing against that, no, they protest the fact that the soldier was gay. filthy decadent man love will not be tolerated.

I've said nothing new here. I can't top what Carlin says on the subject of religion.

As for science. It isn't much better. Where religion uses misinformation, science uses fact. But they both try to offer answers. That in itself is justification for both. They are trying to answer questions. But I like this:

science will cut our souls out and pin them to the wall like a butterfly collector. Stilltrucking

Science will tell us, eventually, where we came from. They'll eventually see into the moment where time. just. started. And we'll know. But then, what casued it to. just. start? What happened before that? I can't believe in a tangeble nothing, yet all i believe in is nothing. I believe in nothingness but not Nothing. A completely empty thing, rather, a completly empty no-thing, non-thing. And that's what science implies; if there was a starting point, then at some point prior to that there was Nothing. Can something come from nothing? a literal nothing?

And in the beginning god created all manner of shit. What did he do prior to that? Are we to believe that he played Play Station for millions and millions of years (he hadn't invented years by this point but i'm pretty sure he would have had some sort of time telling device. he had a PS so I'm sure he had some sort of watch that didn't tell time the way we do. no light means no sun and no sun means no days and no days means no nights and that implies no time, if nothing moves forwards then there's no time. so, for the purposes of this story, god is sitting in a timeless bubble playing PS)? What did god do prior to page one in the bible? I think it's high time we had a prequel to the bible.

God: The Early Years
And in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth...but before that...

Sorry for the rant. I don't really care what you believe but i respect your right to believe it, so long as you respect my right to mock you for it.

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. " Voltaire

Of course, he also said that god was a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh and that a witty saying proves nothing...

[bennie2]

found this:

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!
George Carlin

[stilltrucking]

Yah George is a funny guy, no doubt.
So is Douglas Adams who I refer to as DNA
"Everything the human race has ever believed in is still true long after the human race has needed it to be truel."

Bennie2 wrote

Science will tell us, eventually, where we came from. They'll eventually see into the moment where time. just. started.

Would I defend your right to say that?
Sure
Sounds like you are a believer Bennie.

Fucking einstein with a piece of chalk and a black board
a pencil and paper
doing his thought experiments.
Now you got ass holes that believe that the next exciting new piece of hardware is going to give us the answer, to live the universe and everything.
But the trouble is science starts out trying to give us comfort and winds up delivering every more elegant weapons.

You and me we are rugged individualists
we are free thinkingers
there must be millions of people like us
who do not need a purpose to enjoy a sunrise or a day at the beach.

But then there are the other 99.9 percent who need a purpose in life
They need religion
they need jobs
freedom and dignity
and for a god time call Jesus

shit I got no logic
I can't do the math
but what science tells us these days depends on thaumaturgical apparatus that sees what our eyes can not, hears what we cant

all we got to do is believe what the scientists tell us about the time before the big bang banged
and what will happen after the final wimper


sorry
it is early
and I am still sober
this is just one scroll in a text box which seems to have gone on for ever


maybe I should read what I have written here before I post it.
nah
just a go
love to go
every chance I git

THose russian dolls that open up and then there is a another smaller one inside. And a smaller one inside the next one and so on.

I suppose that is how I see creation, there will be an enigma wrapped in a mystery forever and ever a men.

and then we will find out that we are god
like the old pogo strip said
we will meet the enemy and find out he is us.

metaphors that is all we have
be it joe pesci or jesus

"You don't see something until you have the right metaphor to let you percieve it."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sha ... ysicist%29

sorry about the typos
trying to fix them now

[Totenkopf]

Carlin's another of these banjo-picker skeptics. Lots of 'em, everywhere (Even in the hallowed hulls of S-eight). OK, we might not disagree with Carlin's content, but his form---eh. Cracker-barrel. He sounds like a street perp.

The real issue with the theo-speak though is this: what is the status of concepts or "entities" that cannot be proven to exist? Some might say "Zeus" in some sense exists, at least metaphorically...... though one can't really offer a valid argument that murder is evil, most would say it's "evil"....................

(AS Emily D yawped, "success in circuit lies." Alas, a maxim that most Americun literary-wannabes forget).

[stilltrucking]

Mnaz, I try to keep the author of the thread in mind as I wanderer farther or further off topic. This is an excellent topic, that disciplined writting of yours puts me in awe, if I was not such a sophmoric no it all I would sit on my hands and just read. But the thread is so interesting I can't stop my compel illusions to type some more.
thank you
say high jack



Professor TK, can you take a joke? I wont whip out another sock puppett in respect to your scholarship (no sarcasm intended)

I have not read much Nietzsche, so I do not even think about trying to explain him to you. Just meant to be as from a student of German to a professoer, you Kerouac said sinserity is everything, if I can fake his voice I got it licked.

so much for mindless rambling back to my point about something bennie said. Bennie2, not to be condensending, nor sarcastic, I can hear the youth in your voice. Your writting voice, I mean. May you be for ever young.

you are so close to it
it seems to me when you said this bit

I can't believe in a tangeble nothing, yet all i believe in is nothing. I believe in nothingness but not Nothing. A completely empty thing, rather, a completly empty no-thing, non-thing. And that's what science implies; if there was a starting point, then at some point prior to that there was Nothing. Can something come from nothing? a literal nothing?

I been trying to have some kind of phenomenological conversation with everyone on this thread

but right now I am trying to do it with TK and you.

Dear Herr Professor. Bennie sounds so Zen there. Which brings me back to my point about not reading much of Nietzsche. No poser here, but I read Nietzsche the hard way, the letters crawing around on the page like thick black worms acid etched onto my brain.

The Gen of Morals, and The birth of tragedy, unfortunately do to a ridiculous turn of fate I can not read german
Turns out I read more of Walter Kaufmann than I have Nietzsche

Bennie it is weird to me how many hits you would get for google searches of Nietzsche + Buddhism, or Nietzsche + Zen.
I guess I am confused, maybe TK could enlighten me. Nietsche was warry of eastern nihlism, but I could be so wrong about that.

A word you don't hear much any more but it was real important to the terminally hip
Co-Opted, are the Buddhist co opting Nietzsche I done know.

I believe in nothingness
because it is tangible
as a tea pot

[Totenkopf]

Sometimes reading your ______________ , ST, I can't help associating it with "lampshade." Ah mean that in good way of course. If Gott true-lee is Tot, then like anything goes. So , ye olde Stalin-Hitler....... packed

[stilltrucking]

well thanks professor
too much logic
too rational
the voice of a true believer

Believe me
I would make more sense in German
such a wonderful descriptive language
so percise
I had to take it for premed
essen and fressen
but that from the yiddish not the german
people on mars all want to know about yiddish
i tell them it is a corrupt form of german and hebrew

Ah st*lin is a live and well
Living down in Cuber
with the other retired members of the cartel


I missed the whole bit about socrates too.

ses I love spiders
spiders love me
the Witch of Buchenwold sends me bath soap so pure
madame defarge knitts my socks

I am a happy feller

yes any thing goes

words not sticks

power to flower

[mnaz]

I am reading this thread with great amusement. I personally have no use for religion. I'm not sure why religion keeps getting dragged into this thread; that is not the intent. It is about the concept of origin and essence and "God"-- to suggest a broader, more all-encompassing concept-- not so much "entity" but phenomenon, or universal binding force of sorts, for lack of a better way to put it. Or we could say simply that "the divine lives within", and that it must somehow dwell throughout the universe as well.

Do I believe in "God" as Huge Old Man Entity with a long white beard up in the sky somewhere hurling down thunderbolts? Of course not. Yet at the same time, who's to say with absolute certainty that "God" cannot exist in any form whatsoever? I suppose I'm more of an atheist than theist in the classical sense-- yet, as Bennie said, I respect the rights of staunch atheists and theists to their unbending beliefs, as long as they respect my right to "mock" them both... haha.

[stilltrucking]

"god is not mocked except by believers" A.S.

[stilltrucking]

I know we keep dragging religion into it
and your original thougth was god and science

I guess maybe we got to go to into some linguistic philosophical neuro quantum theology discussion

about God and Religion
as if you could talk about one with out the other
this is where my spontaneous prose style breaks down
requires logic
God and Science
Science and Religion
isms and schisims

I am much relieved to hear you are amused
I think it is a great thread

russell called buddhism a godless religion, I don't guess that was an original thought of his.

Love science mnaz, never started out to be a quantum hippy mindlessly typing here.

the problem with all the specials on tv about miraculous discovers about the mind and the seat of the soul.

not really what they are seeing
just thermal images of what part of the brain is heating up due to blood flow

I think is something like that.

TK's bit about the phyisio chemical laws interesting
as if god sat down with a slide rule and worked it out
christ I am going to die laughing

thanks for writting
mark
it is a tough job
but somebody has to do it.

[Totenkopf]

Gott, by definition, made
one ST into The Lampshade

[stilltrucking]

Gott, by definition, made
one ST into The Lampshade

beats me professor
if you are referring to the Kings James Vision of the bible than I guess so.
but as e-dog has pointed out
the bible is just a norton anthology of the near east

which gott
so many gots
should I have no gotss be fore gotts

gotts dam
me
they ought to take a rope and hang me
for being such a heretic

[Totenkopf]

[stilltrucking]

Good idea
Science and God
mojo magic