Denese and I both were raised by parents who chose not to "spare the rod" in matters of discipline. My mother and step father would use metal spatulas, wooden spoons, or any blunt instument in close proximity during their fits of rage. I was also the subject of horrible verbal and mental abuse, most times in the name of god. Denese tells me that I had it worse by 75%, but she still knows what its like to get a good spanking.
Now I bring you to a subject that we find ourselves discussing often. We both want to raise our child without having memories like mine or hers in times of discipline. However, I can only assume that there will be times when a small tap on the ass is needed. Not the bare ass painful beatings that i took. Just a little pride or ego assault to show my child that what they did will not be tolerated.
Denese is fully against any sort of physical assault. Its not that i plan to, or want to hit my kid, its just that i am being a realist.
What are your thoughts on discipline? Did you hit your kids? Do you hit your kids? If you didnt or you dont, hows that workin out?
"I'll give you something to cry about"
"I'll give you something to cry about"
http://frombeerstobabies.blogspot.com/
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judih
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no hitting. no.
G, my partner, has an amazing voice (sax & flute trained) that he can use to stop a kid in her/his tracks.
Me? i used to grab hands from electric sockets, then run out to buy protective child-proof plugs so i wouldn't have to deal. Along with that came 'No!' or 'Don't touch' or 'Never run into the street' with the momentary emotion of fear.
Feedback at the time of the problem always.
Later on there could come times for discussions, or embellishments, but real-time reactions always.
When our kids tried biting, we immediately used a technique to show them it hurts. If they bit my leg, i'd push my leg into their teeth so that the bite hurt them in return. It worked. i'd be amazed at parents who'd shrug and say : all kids bite!
No way. kids need to learn that violence is not acceptable.
How can a parent hitting them teach them that?
Modelling behaviour is the way to go. Modelling love, patience, talking things out. All good to have around.
Try not to read all those books. Books are in general invented to take your loving instinct and disregard it. And every book says something else. Kids get confused if you use a hundred techniques to teach them something.
You'll work it out. Just remember how you felt when you got hit, and chances are you won't do it to your little one.
G, my partner, has an amazing voice (sax & flute trained) that he can use to stop a kid in her/his tracks.
Me? i used to grab hands from electric sockets, then run out to buy protective child-proof plugs so i wouldn't have to deal. Along with that came 'No!' or 'Don't touch' or 'Never run into the street' with the momentary emotion of fear.
Feedback at the time of the problem always.
Later on there could come times for discussions, or embellishments, but real-time reactions always.
When our kids tried biting, we immediately used a technique to show them it hurts. If they bit my leg, i'd push my leg into their teeth so that the bite hurt them in return. It worked. i'd be amazed at parents who'd shrug and say : all kids bite!
No way. kids need to learn that violence is not acceptable.
How can a parent hitting them teach them that?
Modelling behaviour is the way to go. Modelling love, patience, talking things out. All good to have around.
Try not to read all those books. Books are in general invented to take your loving instinct and disregard it. And every book says something else. Kids get confused if you use a hundred techniques to teach them something.
You'll work it out. Just remember how you felt when you got hit, and chances are you won't do it to your little one.
I don't have children, I'm not expecting any anytime soon, nor do I want any... although, that stance is changing slightly... I'm less against it than i used to be.
So, take the following bit as not so much advice as... opinion.
I was slapped around ("skelped") as a child. I wasn't beaten, I was hit when i was a fucker or simply annoyed my dad. When I was a boy it was still "the done thing" to teach by the fist.
I can't say it helped me. I can't compare it to anything else though because I didn't know anything else. I've known others who were physically abused (one in particular). her stories haunt me still. And they still haunt her, regardless of what she used to say to me. You can't set that baggage down.
I felt humiliation more than anything when I used to get a hit from my dad. Now i feel resentment. Like i said, I wasn't beaten around, simply just hit when I was out of line in his eyes. Being presbeterian scot (dreary protestant) by nature meant than he saw me as being out of line rather a lot, in that I was always a creative little questioning fucker.
I remember one day (this is filed under humiliation) we went for a day out in edinburgh. a walk in a gorgeous city. we got a family day ticket on the train... wandered around, saw the castle... I remember vaugely making some comment, more than likely involving "fuck" (I was probably around 12 at the time) and my dad slapping me so hard on the back of the head that my nose started to run. I thought, "he's broke my brain and it's dripping out my nose..." This happened in a busy edinburgh street in summer time (edinburgh is so pretty that it is a massive tourist attraction) and I felt utter humiliation. I can still remember that blood taste (you know that blood taste you get in the back of your throat after a good slap/punch/kick/fall even though there is no actual blood?) and the humiliation of being hit hard and crying in a busy street.
So far as I can tell, that's all I've "gained" from being hit as a child: humiliation and resentment.
If I ever manage to find a girl and I decide that I'd kind of like to try all that children stuff... I couldn't hit the child.
Lashing out (by shouting or hitting) is usually a tell tell sign of frustration. not knowing what else to do. no other words to win the argument so you raise your voice. no other remarks to make so you lash out with a fist...
I have an issue with confrontation. I have a real fear, a dread of confrontation. It is probably partly the cause of me losing someone very, very dear to me recently. I wonder if that has any relation to my experiences.
I think a fist from a loved one can do more damage than anything else. But, I also think that, yes, before language kicks in, a slap on the arse or the back of the legs can help to inform a child. associate the pain with act and realise that they shouldn't do it.
if you're still hitting when the kid understands "no"... that's a different story.
I wonder how much of child hitting is down to parents feeling frustrated. I'm fairly sure that was the case in my story. young parents, unmarried and me the bastard child. an unwanted child born to children uneducated about abortion has devastating consequences.
yabyum, i've read your various posts about travel and "the road" (two different things) and... if something has grabbed you enough to cause you to stay put? I wouldn't worry too much about anything. trust in the same wit and heart that's gotten you this far.
I've always been somewhat envious of the modern day neal cassady. i'm sure you'll help to bring an excellent child into the world.
buy him/her plenty of books that illustrate the absurdity of religion and wealth.
So, take the following bit as not so much advice as... opinion.
I was slapped around ("skelped") as a child. I wasn't beaten, I was hit when i was a fucker or simply annoyed my dad. When I was a boy it was still "the done thing" to teach by the fist.
I can't say it helped me. I can't compare it to anything else though because I didn't know anything else. I've known others who were physically abused (one in particular). her stories haunt me still. And they still haunt her, regardless of what she used to say to me. You can't set that baggage down.
I felt humiliation more than anything when I used to get a hit from my dad. Now i feel resentment. Like i said, I wasn't beaten around, simply just hit when I was out of line in his eyes. Being presbeterian scot (dreary protestant) by nature meant than he saw me as being out of line rather a lot, in that I was always a creative little questioning fucker.
I remember one day (this is filed under humiliation) we went for a day out in edinburgh. a walk in a gorgeous city. we got a family day ticket on the train... wandered around, saw the castle... I remember vaugely making some comment, more than likely involving "fuck" (I was probably around 12 at the time) and my dad slapping me so hard on the back of the head that my nose started to run. I thought, "he's broke my brain and it's dripping out my nose..." This happened in a busy edinburgh street in summer time (edinburgh is so pretty that it is a massive tourist attraction) and I felt utter humiliation. I can still remember that blood taste (you know that blood taste you get in the back of your throat after a good slap/punch/kick/fall even though there is no actual blood?) and the humiliation of being hit hard and crying in a busy street.
So far as I can tell, that's all I've "gained" from being hit as a child: humiliation and resentment.
If I ever manage to find a girl and I decide that I'd kind of like to try all that children stuff... I couldn't hit the child.
Lashing out (by shouting or hitting) is usually a tell tell sign of frustration. not knowing what else to do. no other words to win the argument so you raise your voice. no other remarks to make so you lash out with a fist...
I have an issue with confrontation. I have a real fear, a dread of confrontation. It is probably partly the cause of me losing someone very, very dear to me recently. I wonder if that has any relation to my experiences.
I think a fist from a loved one can do more damage than anything else. But, I also think that, yes, before language kicks in, a slap on the arse or the back of the legs can help to inform a child. associate the pain with act and realise that they shouldn't do it.
if you're still hitting when the kid understands "no"... that's a different story.
I wonder how much of child hitting is down to parents feeling frustrated. I'm fairly sure that was the case in my story. young parents, unmarried and me the bastard child. an unwanted child born to children uneducated about abortion has devastating consequences.
yabyum, i've read your various posts about travel and "the road" (two different things) and... if something has grabbed you enough to cause you to stay put? I wouldn't worry too much about anything. trust in the same wit and heart that's gotten you this far.
I've always been somewhat envious of the modern day neal cassady. i'm sure you'll help to bring an excellent child into the world.
buy him/her plenty of books that illustrate the absurdity of religion and wealth.
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Doreen Peri
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No hitting. No spanking. No!
NO! said in a strong enough tone works quite well.
I agree with what both judih and bennie said.
The only time I spanked my son was when he accidentally knocked over the Christmas tree when he was 2 years old. I was so worried that he could have gotten hurt! Some of the bulbs were glass and broke and there he was sitting there shocked as hell crying after the big bang and I scooped him up in my arms and got him out of the room and gave him a slap on the butt and said, "NO! See what can happen when you play with the Christmas tree? Don't do that again!" And I felt awful about the spanking. I felt way bad. It was just my reaction to stop him from doing it again. The scare of the tree falling was PLENTY to teach him a lesson.
Violence teaches violence and breeds resentment.
Respect a child as the person he or she is. People should never hit other people.
NO! said in a strong enough tone works quite well.
I agree with what both judih and bennie said.
The only time I spanked my son was when he accidentally knocked over the Christmas tree when he was 2 years old. I was so worried that he could have gotten hurt! Some of the bulbs were glass and broke and there he was sitting there shocked as hell crying after the big bang and I scooped him up in my arms and got him out of the room and gave him a slap on the butt and said, "NO! See what can happen when you play with the Christmas tree? Don't do that again!" And I felt awful about the spanking. I felt way bad. It was just my reaction to stop him from doing it again. The scare of the tree falling was PLENTY to teach him a lesson.
Violence teaches violence and breeds resentment.
Respect a child as the person he or she is. People should never hit other people.
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Doreen Peri
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One other comment ...
If you think of yourselves as parents being temporary caregivers who are helping prepare a child to be an adult and best handle his or her life in this world, in my opinion, you will be on the right track.
After all, you only have a relatively short time with them compared to the entire length of their lives.
Your child will respect you more in the long run, the less you try to be a controller.
This is not to say that children shouldn't have boundaries and punishment for when they screw up. That's a necessary part of your temporary caregiver position because it helps prepare a child for handling adulthood and living in this world. But that can be done without any type of corporal punishment.
_________
These are just my opinions, of course. If you and Denese decide to use a tap on your toddler's bottom to teach her not to touch a hot stove, well I think that's fine, really. Just not too hard, ok?
(hey you asked... but now i'm feeling a little like I'm posting stuff I believe but it's really not my business? I donno)
If you think of yourselves as parents being temporary caregivers who are helping prepare a child to be an adult and best handle his or her life in this world, in my opinion, you will be on the right track.
After all, you only have a relatively short time with them compared to the entire length of their lives.
Your child will respect you more in the long run, the less you try to be a controller.
This is not to say that children shouldn't have boundaries and punishment for when they screw up. That's a necessary part of your temporary caregiver position because it helps prepare a child for handling adulthood and living in this world. But that can be done without any type of corporal punishment.
_________
These are just my opinions, of course. If you and Denese decide to use a tap on your toddler's bottom to teach her not to touch a hot stove, well I think that's fine, really. Just not too hard, ok?
(hey you asked... but now i'm feeling a little like I'm posting stuff I believe but it's really not my business? I donno)
My mom refused to spank. My father used the belt. But I don't resent it or anything, because I know when it happened I really really deserved it. My parents used grounding, etc. more than anything. But I guess corporal punishment is a slippery slope. My father never truly hurt me, it just stung enough that I had no desire to repeat my behaviour.
I feared getting spanked, but I've never feared my father. I know my sister feels the same way.
I feared getting spanked, but I've never feared my father. I know my sister feels the same way.
...
thanks Judih and Doreen. We both agree.
Bennie, thanks. You and I have been sharing words for years now and i really enjoyed what you said about me chosing to settle down. That was kind.
Bohonato, i also agree about not feeling resentment. I also hope having lived it, I can break the cycle.
Bennie, thanks. You and I have been sharing words for years now and i really enjoyed what you said about me chosing to settle down. That was kind.
Bohonato, i also agree about not feeling resentment. I also hope having lived it, I can break the cycle.
http://frombeerstobabies.blogspot.com/
because I know when it happened I really really deserved it. that was not my caso, they hit me and shouted me for very stupid reasons -or maybe not at all! - as far as always could see them!!!!! (not wanting to go to some place, not wanting to play with my brother, not finding some object, for want to have one dress instead of other, for say things I was supposed not to say). Then, they formally -in one way or another- apologized for being the way they were more or less 20 years later... 
. So, I´m not for pegar to kids and I´m for to talk to them in a both sincere and also carefull way (basically at least trying not to consider them the only cause of all your early past-present-and yet to come existential problems!!!!! ) even though I know for some people is harder than to others to face sometimes kids´s anger and desasosiego (in Pessoa´s words) without proyecting whatever in them. Sure you´ll break the cycle!. I´ve been trying it each day with my students since fifteen years ago!!!!!!! good luck for both of you!!!!! 
. So, I´m not for pegar to kids and I´m for to talk to them in a both sincere and also carefull way (basically at least trying not to consider them the only cause of all your early past-present-and yet to come existential problems!!!!! ) even though I know for some people is harder than to others to face sometimes kids´s anger and desasosiego (in Pessoa´s words) without proyecting whatever in them. Sure you´ll break the cycle!. I´ve been trying it each day with my students since fifteen years ago!!!!!!! good luck for both of you!!!!! -
hester_prynne
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Absofuckinglutely no hitting, smacking, or degradation at all, you want to instill integrity of communication, and physical ramifications breed STUPIDITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hitting is a weak way of rationalizing putting your own angers or fears on an innocent bystander, i.e. your kid. Don't do it, learn how to have the patience to raise your offspring without violence in any form, especially avoid any violences your parents may have inflicted on you. Consciously do it differently, respectfully, and you will heal from your own abuse wounds too, I guarentee it.
H
Hitting is a weak way of rationalizing putting your own angers or fears on an innocent bystander, i.e. your kid. Don't do it, learn how to have the patience to raise your offspring without violence in any form, especially avoid any violences your parents may have inflicted on you. Consciously do it differently, respectfully, and you will heal from your own abuse wounds too, I guarentee it.
H
"I am a victim of society, and, an entertainer"........DW
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Dave The Dov
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Argh never hit your kid!!!! My folks brought me up just fine without hitting!!!!
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Last edited by Dave The Dov on March 24th, 2009, 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mrs. yabyum
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hi everyone, it's denese with a new username! hurray!
anyway, thanks for all your input on this subject. i hope to raise our child(ren?) without ever raising a hand to their bodies.
will i think about whapping someone's smart mouth? probably. will i think about returning a pinch/bite/slap to assure the gravity and NOT-OKAY-NESS of the child's action? of course. will i ever think, 'uh-oh, baby's gonna touch a hot stove, better slap that hand away to teach a lesson?' yes. will i ever think, 'holy crap, what was i thinking stay at home mom, this shit bites, i gotta toss this screaming barf bag out the window and split?' surely.
my issue is that i will simply think about these things. yes, i am admitting that i will most likely want to spank or slap or otherwise use my hands to reiterate our parenting philosophy. however, i believe (think personally, know from personal experience on receiving end, and have learned from childcare experience) that words are so much more effective. if i need to pick up a child to redirect to a more appropriate and safe activity, fine. i am so comforted that ronnie and i have such a thoughtful, eloquent community of poets, writers, and general wordsmiths (not to mention former kids themselves) to commiserate.
hitting is hitting. hurting is hurting. little kids are little kids, big people are big people. actions and perception and motivation and pain are so different for everyone. i'm learning a lot from being a pregnant, hormonal, irrational woman, including it is NOT OKAY to take out your aggression on ANYONE no matter what they did or said or how you feel about what they did or said. it's all about perspective and circumstance for me, and i think that punishments should be custom made for the crime.
personally, i feel that me, my brother, and my sister never deserved the out-of-control intense spanking sessions we received from my stepfather. these were not regular but i remember each of them, having felt such misunderstanding of and hatred for the act. my mom chose to employ threatening as a favorite (and most effective) rearing tool. she used "the look" that could freeze hell and then, when we were older, they would sit us down for hours-long lectures about how we were such ungrateful, lazy, unsuccessful brats, threatening to take every toy, pet, leisure item away if we didn't shape up. i never understood why who was getting hit so hard or so many times or why who was getting what screamed at them for so long. after i grew up a little and thought about it, i realized that my parents were just pissed at the world in general and we were right there for them to sponge up all their anger. i know now that they feel like they did wrong, but that doesn't change the years of humiliation and resentment i built up against them. i always wished they could have just told me what i did was wrong, they expected something different from me, i would have to pay for my wrongdoings in ANY way except bending over, touching my toes, and waiting for the intensely painful whacking to end. by the time i was about 12, i'd lost all respect for my parents because of the choices they had made.
i just don't want my kid to ever feel that way towards me, even if a fraction.
anyway, thanks for all your input on this subject. i hope to raise our child(ren?) without ever raising a hand to their bodies.
will i think about whapping someone's smart mouth? probably. will i think about returning a pinch/bite/slap to assure the gravity and NOT-OKAY-NESS of the child's action? of course. will i ever think, 'uh-oh, baby's gonna touch a hot stove, better slap that hand away to teach a lesson?' yes. will i ever think, 'holy crap, what was i thinking stay at home mom, this shit bites, i gotta toss this screaming barf bag out the window and split?' surely.
my issue is that i will simply think about these things. yes, i am admitting that i will most likely want to spank or slap or otherwise use my hands to reiterate our parenting philosophy. however, i believe (think personally, know from personal experience on receiving end, and have learned from childcare experience) that words are so much more effective. if i need to pick up a child to redirect to a more appropriate and safe activity, fine. i am so comforted that ronnie and i have such a thoughtful, eloquent community of poets, writers, and general wordsmiths (not to mention former kids themselves) to commiserate.
hitting is hitting. hurting is hurting. little kids are little kids, big people are big people. actions and perception and motivation and pain are so different for everyone. i'm learning a lot from being a pregnant, hormonal, irrational woman, including it is NOT OKAY to take out your aggression on ANYONE no matter what they did or said or how you feel about what they did or said. it's all about perspective and circumstance for me, and i think that punishments should be custom made for the crime.
personally, i feel that me, my brother, and my sister never deserved the out-of-control intense spanking sessions we received from my stepfather. these were not regular but i remember each of them, having felt such misunderstanding of and hatred for the act. my mom chose to employ threatening as a favorite (and most effective) rearing tool. she used "the look" that could freeze hell and then, when we were older, they would sit us down for hours-long lectures about how we were such ungrateful, lazy, unsuccessful brats, threatening to take every toy, pet, leisure item away if we didn't shape up. i never understood why who was getting hit so hard or so many times or why who was getting what screamed at them for so long. after i grew up a little and thought about it, i realized that my parents were just pissed at the world in general and we were right there for them to sponge up all their anger. i know now that they feel like they did wrong, but that doesn't change the years of humiliation and resentment i built up against them. i always wished they could have just told me what i did was wrong, they expected something different from me, i would have to pay for my wrongdoings in ANY way except bending over, touching my toes, and waiting for the intensely painful whacking to end. by the time i was about 12, i'd lost all respect for my parents because of the choices they had made.
i just don't want my kid to ever feel that way towards me, even if a fraction.
http://frombeerstobabies.blogspot.com
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Lightning Rod
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izeveryboyin
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I don't know how much authority I have over these matters seeing as how I've only been in this motherhood game 8 months... but I couldn't resist adding my two cents. I originally took the same mind as your parents... spare the rod and all that. It's how I was raised. But now I 'm mostly against it. Its hard to look into the face of this sweet innocent being that you've created and imagine ever causing even the slightest hard to her. I got whippings until I was about 13, when my mother and I became the same height, prompting her to move on to "punishments" which were evil, but effective deprivations of every luxury known to the average teenager. I've spent a lot of time thinking about what effect it's had on me... but so far, I really don't know. It certainly kept me in line as a child. I was seen and not heard, the I was taught children were supposed to be... eventually I wasn't even phased by the trivial workings of the infantile mind. My job was to help my mother raise me... walking myself home from school as young as 7. I was a latch-key kid, and I wasn't allowed visitors so I was alone a lot. But I just wasn't into trouble-making anymore... so I suppose she beat me into submission. And I guess... that has it's pros and cons. I don't want it to be thought that she was abusive. In general her discipline was reasonable... and with cause. Only big incidents... setting the kitchen on fire, breaking priceless artifacts, warranted spankings... and I was rarely even yelled at. So I guess my opinion is that in extreme situations... when nothing else seems to be getting through... I am somewhat of an advocate. Not to say that I myself am planning on practicing it with my daughter... I don't think I have it in me... but if a parent feels like that is what their child needs then who am I to criticize? Every parent has a different situation... a different reasoning... you never know a person's story. That in mind, I don't think it is anyone's choice but your own as to how to discipline the child you have created. No one should be able to say anything against they way you handle that responsibility.. unless you are blatantly abusing it. And I think that the two of you will do wonders. Sorry for the book here. I tend to have a lot to say. Good luck!!
--k
--k
sometimes I just like to breathe.
www.technicolorfraud.blogspot.com
www.technicolorfraud.blogspot.com
....
izy.......i like your reply. I always like your posts. (even though I dont always reply) I agree very much with everything you wrote. Almost as thugh I wrote it myself. Thanks. I imagine I will have many other things to pick from your brain after August, seeing how you'll have a one year head start on being a parent.
http://frombeerstobabies.blogspot.com/
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mrs. yabyum
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i got this from a parentdish.com poster who got it from schuylersmonsterblog.com. basically sums up how i feel in a clean & clear way:
"...while I have my father's temper, I watch it constantly and at the very least vent it in ways that don't hurt anyone. I'd like to do better with that temper, but I remember just how afraid I always was of my dad when I was Schuyler's age, and I won't allow her to feel that same fear, ever.
It's one of the reasons I refuse to spank/beat/whatever-word-you-like my kid, and to be honest, it's the same reason I don't think anyone else should, either. Who has the temperament and self-control to be trusted never to cross the line between discipline and abuse? You? Are you sure about that? I'd want to be pretty sure myself, but that's just me."
i know that the spankings i received were given in pure anger in the heat of the moment rather than a long-term-effect teaching spirit. all the spankings i've ever witnessed and heard of were given in anger. toddler gets pissed and yells "i hate you." didn't mean it that way. dad gets pissed and spanks. preschooler constantly tests boundaries. didn't mean it that way. mom gets pissed and spanks. elementary kid forgets to take out garbage. didn't mean it that way. dad gets pissed and spanks. kids don't mean it to be mean. but spanking is being mean.
who wants to be mean to their kid? why would anyone do that? i've waited my whole life for the man with whom i could have this family. ronnie has traveled the entire country to get to me and make this family with me. how could we be mean to the proof of our love? how could we teach them that it's okay to get mad, be mean, and act on that for the wrong reason?
"...while I have my father's temper, I watch it constantly and at the very least vent it in ways that don't hurt anyone. I'd like to do better with that temper, but I remember just how afraid I always was of my dad when I was Schuyler's age, and I won't allow her to feel that same fear, ever.
It's one of the reasons I refuse to spank/beat/whatever-word-you-like my kid, and to be honest, it's the same reason I don't think anyone else should, either. Who has the temperament and self-control to be trusted never to cross the line between discipline and abuse? You? Are you sure about that? I'd want to be pretty sure myself, but that's just me."
i know that the spankings i received were given in pure anger in the heat of the moment rather than a long-term-effect teaching spirit. all the spankings i've ever witnessed and heard of were given in anger. toddler gets pissed and yells "i hate you." didn't mean it that way. dad gets pissed and spanks. preschooler constantly tests boundaries. didn't mean it that way. mom gets pissed and spanks. elementary kid forgets to take out garbage. didn't mean it that way. dad gets pissed and spanks. kids don't mean it to be mean. but spanking is being mean.
who wants to be mean to their kid? why would anyone do that? i've waited my whole life for the man with whom i could have this family. ronnie has traveled the entire country to get to me and make this family with me. how could we be mean to the proof of our love? how could we teach them that it's okay to get mad, be mean, and act on that for the wrong reason?
http://frombeerstobabies.blogspot.com
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