Rapes in the military

[Doreen Peri]

Just heard this story on the news on TV.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008 ... 514&page=1

It's about the

epidemic of assault and rape against women in our military.

Here's another report from cbs
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/ ... 5105.shtml

Yanno what? I am increasingly convinced that men really do not like women.

I really think they hate us.

No shit.

What do you think?

[constantine]

hate? i'm not sure. intimidated - is another story. the patriarchy pulled a coup d'etat on matriarchy in the neolithic at various times in various places. perhaps we are rebelling against the power of mother - hence the term motherfucker that is bandied about incessantly.

[Doreen Peri]

Intimidated? You're kidding right?

Hey, men rule the fricking world. How do women intimidate? Men run the show. Still. Always will it seems. It's still almost impossible to get paid the same amount of money for the same job as a man. For the most part, women have to work harder to be even seen, let alone recognized.

It's women who are continually intimidated by men, it looks like to me.

I'm having a hard time understanding your entire post.

"the patriarchy pulled a coup d'etat on matriarchy in the neolithic at various times in various places."

??? I don't get it.

Following that you speak of rebelling against the power of mother, and that's a little freudian and sounds a little creepy to me. I don't get that either. Are you saying men rape because all women remind them of their mothers?

[e_dog]

"constantine" who is obviously stilltruckin' says that matriarchical ancient prehistoric societies were displaced by patriarchy.

thats probably true, if matriarvchy ever existed.

anyway, its the military, man. its a violent thing. what do soldiers do? they rape kill pillage.

that's the essens of soldiering. don't be;lieve the hype -- the U.S. militaries no betta than the Huns probably worse.

WE ARE THE BARBARIANS, OR RATHER THE VIKINGS.


Forget about Radovan Karadic; indite Bushie! Send the criminalz to tha HAGUE!

[constantine]

i know that men rule the world - i'm not an idiot. ancient historians like rhian eisler and marija gimbutas would agree with me on the change of power that took place in neolithic societies. as for contemporary society, i don't think the male psyche has changed all that much from ancient times. rape is a power issue - men have subjugated women throughout history. why? must be somewhat psychologically based i would think. just because we run the show doesn't mean we are not intimidated. in fact, i would offer that it is because we are intimidated psycholgically that we always try to run the show - politically and interpersonally. it is quite possible that men are not even aware that they are intimidated; it is subliminal, but still controlling their (men's) actions and motivations.

[constantine]

no. i assure you i am constantine.

[Doreen Peri]

OK. Thanks e-dog and constantine for your replies.

.....

I guess I'm just always shocked when this type of behavior is seen as "normal."

I was raped when I was in high school and again when I was in college. It took me 20 years to write a poem about it.

I'll never forget when I posted the poem on an internet site a few years back, most of the replies came from men and almost all of them mentioned a "loss of innocence" and a "coming of age" without being appalled or saying anything about the violence or the way the event may have effected me.

It seemed to me that they were all saying that rape of young ladies is a normal, regularly occurring event and that women should just accept the fact that it happens.

I still shake my head and it makes me upset to think about those replies and that attitude.
....

e-dog... why are men still barbarians? Are women also barbarians?

constantine.... why do you think the male psyche hasn't changed much since ancient times? And what can we do to help the male psyche evolve? Also, if men are intimidated by women, how so? Could you give some examples? I believe you when you say this is what you believe is true, but I don't understand how this intimidation is taking place. Also, for the record, I know you're not stupid. You're much more educated than me so I'm asking you to enlighten me some more. Thanks.

[constantine]

the mother sets the moral tone, she educates the young male child in everything from how to use a knife and fork to how to put on pants. she gives him milk from her breast and takes it away. she educates by the tone of her voice and the look of her eye. that power is intimidating or can be. i'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule - suely there are cultural and sociological overlays, but the core of male psychology is framed by women. the male wants the mother to be his - at his beck and call. this carries over psychologically into adult life - unknown to all participants. girls havesimilar issues. they want daddy's love and attention in a very similar way to the boy/mother scenario. put them together and a lot of weird shit can happen, and does. i am not more educated than you - we all have our own realm of knowledge and experience, dorie baby!

[Doreen Peri]

Hmmm. well... Why is it, then, that girls get the same nurturing and don't grow up resentful of their mothers? I'm grateful my mother taught me how to use a fork. (which reminds me of the joke about the kid with sores all over his face and when the other kids asked him on the playground where the sores came from he said, "My mom was trying to teach me how to use a fork".. haha... it's hard to do delivery on the internet in text)

Anyway but seriously. I am grateful for the nurturing my mom gave me. I'm grateful for being taught the difference between right and wrong and how to take a bath and how to keep my room clean and all that. My Dad had a big part in bringing us up, too, btw. It isn't always ALL the mother's influence.

I didn't grow up hating my mother and wanting to hurt women! Why do men grow up that way? They're being given LOVE and they react to it by being angry and resentful? What for? Why do they rebel against women because someone was kind enough to take care of them and love them? It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Why is being loved and nurtured and cared for something that's intimidating?

Also, could you explain the change from matriarchal societies to patriarchal? I am not well versed in world history. Which societies were matriarchal? And how did that change?

Sorry I know this is a lot to ask because it's time consuming to answer and everything but when you have time, I'm really curious.

Thanks for the conversation.

Oh and one more thing.... do you think that young girls should just accept that being raped is part of growing up? That it's a natural thing?

[constantine]

not all men grow up hating their mother or raping women. it's a matter of degree. a mother loves her boy - but that love can take the form of gentle maternalism or scolding or a slap in the face or spanking or being beaten with a hanger. girls can hate their mom but they are both women. they identify with the older female. they are sexually the same - the have the same role of gender. a boy may be loved by the mother, but may develop shyness from being punished or yelled at incessantly. fathers have their own psychological input that can be equally devastating or beneficial - it depends on how the parent was treated as a child in their early formative years from birth to 4 or 5 years. we are hardwired for better or worse by that point. check out alice miller's website on child abuse and development. i think she has a good take on what we are talking about. she's a swiss psychoanalyst that wrote quite a few books on the subject of childhood trauma and how it manifests itself in both destructive and creative tendencies. she's an excellent writer and a compassionate, understanding human being.

[mnaz]

I think the violent and repressive military culture has a lot to do with why a disproportionate number of rapes occur in the military specifically, as e-dog said, especially now, when the all-volunteer US imperial military machine is lowering its recruiting standards to meet its quotas.

As to the patriarchal revolt discussion, I'll have to check into that. Not something I'm familiar with.

As to the question of why being loved and nurtured and cared for is something akin to intimidating, one might also ask a similar question about why so many women are prone to drop-kick loving male companionship at times for the (more abusive) attention of bad boy types.

Yes. A lot of weird shit can happen, and does.

[constantine]

as for the shift from patriarchal to matriarchal, let's leave that for tomorrow. i'm kind of beat. god i wish we were face to face so we could sit around and discuss these things with the natural give and take of normal conversation. it's hard to do it this way - we can do it in pieces - back and forth. i'm cool with that. you make good points and raise interesting questions.

[Lightning Rod]

I was raped by seven women one night
wait, you can't rape the willing
oh, but they used force, such gentle force

power is the key to rape
seduction can be careless and unconscious
and force comes in many forms

rapes can happen without a hard-on
we can be raped by institutions or
ravaged by our own beliefs

Victim is as victim does
Victim does as victim thinks
Victims see themselves as victims

[Doreen Peri]

Thanks, dino... I'll check out the website. Obviously it's a complicated subject. The whole topic of rape actually makes me physically nauseous. But it must be talked about because rape cannot be accepted as "normal"... we have to DO something to change the world somehow and talking about it is a good first step. Looking forward to reading about patriarchal and matriarchal societies when you get time. It's late tonight, yeah.

mnaz ....I wonder the lower standards your talking about are... for volunteers in the military. Lower how? And these lower standards you say are letting more men in the military who will be more likely to rape? Please explain. As for the drop-kick comment, I don't know of one woman personally who has given up a loving relationship for a "bad boy." I do know of women who go for the "bad boys." It usually doesn't last long. Just as the "bad girls" don't usually offer a man a stable long-lasting relationship either. Of course, these are arbitrary labels, right? I definitely agree that weird shit happens and that abuse perpetuates itself. (I think you said that sorta)

Lightning Rod - I was reading your verse and happy to read your thoughts on the topic... until I got to the last stanza...

Victim is as victim does
Victim does as victim thinks
Victims see themselves as victims

Is this the age old accusation that "she asked for it"? Do you think the women who are in the military currently becoming victims of this epidemic of rape ASK for it? Do all women ask for it? What the heck do you mean by "victim is as victim does"?

[Lightning Rod]

The reason I included that last verse was
because it was the heart of my contention
being a victim is an attitude
if you see yourself as a victim
rest assured that you will BE a victim

I went through four years of prison
I had the sweetest little ass in the institution
but nobody ever touched me
because they knew I wasn't a victim
it was how I carried myself

There are many ways to ask for it
you can just be stupid and put yourself in a position
get drunk or drugged beyond your capacity
or as in the case of the soldiers
you can get in trouble by playing out of your league
this happens often when girls wanna play with the big boys
yes, victims invite their fantasies

does that answer your question, dorie baby?