Beat It

[knip]

as i recall, doreen was against capital punishment in another thread, so i'm having a hard time resolving this

but i could be wrong, am going by memory, and certainly apologize if i'm wrong


now, as for MJ, since i feel in my heart he is guilty, i need to ask you sooze, why do you feel he is not? not being confrontational...if i am wrong, i need to know why

[Doreen Peri]

knip - My statement about shooting sexual child abusers in the head was an emotional one. I feel very strongly about this topic.

Yes, I am against capital punishment, knip.

Lock them away and throw away the key.

They're sickos and it's been said that they cannot be rehabilitated. Pedophilia has the largest recidivism rate than any other crime.

And if that's what you mean, SooZ, by "wired that way," well, our society doesn't need them participating in it. If they really can't help what they do, then they shouldn't be part of our society.

SooZ, I echo knip in asking why you think Michael Jackson is not guilty? All the evidence I have heard points to the contrary.


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Different trial, but similar because of the wealth and celebrity of the accused....OJ -- We won't see the trial like we saw OJ's, unfortunately. If I were sitting on OJ's jury, I would have voted guilty, without any doubt.

[knip]

one of my best buddies has a little girl, a big girl really, she is 15 but looks 9, plus she walks on arm crutches, and quite often acts uncivilized towards people, i really don't know why...but when she is herself, she's the damned sweetest little girl i ever knew

she's wired that way

and she'll be dead in a couple years...when she dies she'll be wired that way still


i think that might be part of what sooze meant, although i don't presume to speak for her

[Doreen Peri]

I don't understand the comparison, knip.

I thought SooZ meant that pedophiles are wired that way. That they can't help what they do, since their sexual preference is for children.

Do you mean that because this child you know acts uncivilized towards people, that's similar?

I think acting uncivilized to people isn't very nice and maybe she's angry at the world for her crutches or something, but acting uncivilized is nowhere near as serious as an adult abusing a child sexually.

Children can't make decisions like that. They are not mature enough to know how to answer an adult's sexual advances with any wisdom. They may not know HOW to say no, even if they want to. Pedophiles convince children that their sexual advances are games. As a result, the children become their play toys and lives are ruined... devestated... destroyed... when an adult sexually abuses a child! It's disgusting and ugly and if the person is "wired that way" and can't help himself, then he needs to be locked up away from our children to keep them safe.

When a 15-year-old child acts uncivilized and is mean to the world, I don't think people's lives are devestated or ruined by it.

Big difference.

But as I said, I didn't quite understand the comparison. I'm trying to understand it by typing out my thoughts. If you'd like to explain your point to me, I'd be happy to listen.

-------------

I've heard that some pedophiles actually *blame* the child! Can you imagine that? The child seduced them. That's their excuse. Unfuckingbelievable!!!!

[knip]

no no no

my friend's little girl suffers from an affliction that is killing her...what she does and says while under that spell, she has no choice...she is wired that way...i offered the fact that when she isn't under that spell she is the sweetest thing on two crutches to offer that she didn't have a choice...it was a wiring issue


i think that is what sooze is saying...not to excuse it, but that one must realize that sometimes folks are incapable of being anything other than what they are

[Doreen Peri]

no no no

my friend's little girl suffers from an affliction that is killing her...what she does and says while under that spell, she has no choice...she is wired that way...i offered the fact that when she isn't under that spell she is the sweetest thing on two crutches to offer that she didn't have a choice...it was a wiring issue

i think that is what sooze is saying...not to excuse it, but that one must realize that sometimes folks are incapable of being anything other than what they are

OK. But that's what I thought you meant.

The little girl is incapable of being anything other than what she is. Fine. But when she is uncivilized to people, because she can't help it, it doesn't ruin their lives. That's the difference. And it's a huge difference.

If a pedophile is incapable of being anything other than he is and he has no choice but to sexually abuse children, then, I repeat, he should be removed from society, because what he IS and what he DOES *because* of what he IS and cannot help being..... ruins lives. Destroys them.

Children who have been sexually abused often grow up to be adults
who abuse people, either violently or sexually. It's cyclical and this has been proven. Children who have been sexually abused by adults also oftentimes can never learn to love and share intimacy in a natural healthy way. Many become prostitutes. Many become drug addicted to try to kill the pain of the memory of the abuse. Their lives get majorly fucked up! How do I know this? Because I've seen it more times than I care to talk about. I have witnessed what child sexual abuse can do to a child. It's not pretty.

So, I really do think I understood your take on what you think SooZ meant by "wired that way" quite well.

They can't help it. It's who they are. It's how they act without any ability to stop it. Fine.

Lock 'em up and throw away the key, IF indeed they cannot be rehabilitated which is the general concensus by by professional psychologists, psychiatrists, and social scientists.

Keep them AWAY from your children and mine.

[knip]

oh i agree

do lock them up forever...or at least until a cure is found


because what they have is a sickness

i don't feel the same way about repeat murderers


hell, what do i know? and what do you know?


what we know is that innocents deserve better than being targets

[Lightning Rod]

Well...I have to agree with you LRod...

I don't think Mike is guilty and I have plenty of reasons but it is going to be difficult for him to walk as playing with children is a more treasonous crime than murdering one's wife.

My grandmother married at 15 which was perfectly acceptable in her day. Also, certain Native tribal customs have elder men and women that initiate prepubesent children to the ways of and what to expect in adulthood, including sex and this still goes on to this day. It is a question of mores and social strictures and what is deemed acceptable or not within a society. Our society is very uptight about anything sexual and hence leaves our children very vunerable to sexual predators. WE don't talk to our children about sex and we hide our fantasies out of their reach. If we all walked around nekid we could eliminate the problem. You'd think that Janet Jackson had sprayed the crowd at the superbowl with machine gun fire instead of giving us a peek at her breast. Breasts are for children anyway. Hah!

Peace,
SooZen

sooz, I can always count on your level head.

I think jackson is being railroaded and pilloried. There is something about our popular mentality that loves to see icons fall. I think MJ loves children but I really doubt that he is a pedophile. He is a child himself.

The mother of Jacko's accuser is an obvious predator herself. She tried to work cons on Jay Leno (he called the cops) and Jim Carrey and several others before she found a way to MJ's soft heart. I think the whole thing is an ambush by the con-woman mother and an ambitious district attorney.

The point you make about various cultures dealing with sexuality is very informed. Our society's method of dealing with sexuality, especially with children, is almost a guarantee that lives will be traumatized by 'abuse' and that our prisons will be full.

Have you ever read Huxley's book on this subject called Island? It deals with matters of sexual awareness and coming of age sexually. In his little Utopia, the young men are initiated into sex by an older woman and the young women by an older man. It's a matter of education. Read Mark Morfords column last week about this issue with regard to sex education in our schools:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 022505.DTL

[Doreen Peri]

Knip - I'm glad you agree.

-------------

LR -

If a society approves of a 15-year-old getting married, that's one thing. Our current society doesn't approve of this. Why? Because most 15-year-old girls are not mature enough to make such a decision. Hell, probably most 25-year-old girls aren't either. LOL! Shit, I'm 51, and I'm not sure I'd ever want to do it again, but that's another thread. (but if you keep asking nicely, well, we'll see... maybe...*wink*)

But seriously.... how old was the boy who's accusing MJ at the time of the alleged abuse? 9? 10? 11? 12? This is something else entirely.

Is it *ever* OK in ANY society for a grown man to have sex with a boy?

Getting married to a girl who's 15, if acceptable in certain societies, could be understandable, but if any grown man attempted to TOUCH my 9, 10, 11 or 12 year old daughter or son, I'd get them locked up so quick, your head would spin!

If the mother of the boy who's accusing Jackson is, indeed, a con-woman, that's different, too. I would think, however, that by now, this case having been in the works for so long, they'd be able to see through her con and drop the whole thing. We'll see how it pans out. My guess is that even if he's guilty, he'll walk anyway, because he's got the funds to buy himself freedom. This says very little for our judicial system.

At any rate, I'll follow the link you suggested I follow in your earlier post and see read about the mother's history.

If he walks, I don't think this will be the last we hear of accusations such as this. His Neverland Ranch is clearly a place for creepy activities. There will be more boys coming forward.

Eventually, they'll have to give him his own Catholic parish.

Where do you draw the line, btw? What should be the age of consent for little boys and little girls? When should they be allowed to make a decision about whether they want to have sex with a grown man or woman?

Is it OK for a grown man to make sexual advances to a girl who is 14? 15? 16? How about a boy? Is it OK for a grown man to make sexual advances to a boy who's 10? 12? 14? 16?

My answer?

None of that is OK.

The legal age of consent is set for a reason. It's because generally speaking, children are not mature enough to make a rational decision about sexual activity.

[judih]

another weird public spectacle
christians to lions
gladiators slaying one another

a rich bizarre singer (great dancer)
with even more bizarre parents
and lots of room for speculation

so the media feeds our speculation
and predators jump onto his jugular and who am i to decide?

i think he's being hornswaggled

It's too bad that at the first cry of 'child abuse' there's such a mass of public outrage

but at the crash of a Bush in a forest, there are no trees to hear.
i mean, yes, i'm an outsider and i have enough fear and loathing of what's going on right around me here
(i'm referring to all those bizarre settlers who have to leave their homes, coming to settle in my area, fill my high school and show up at my health clinic to add to the line-ups)

OJ was nuts. Now MJ is nuts.
Why do people rally round and toss their emotions on the bonfire?

Is this a mid-winter rite?

weirded,
judih

[Doreen Peri]

Why do people rally round and toss their emotions on the bonfire?

I know why I do it.

It's part of my life's work to speak out against child sexual abuse.

Whether Michael Jackson is guilty or not, I need to speak.

[judih]

no problem. i understand
but what does your crusade have to do with a pop singer who may be perfectly innocent?

i'm suggesting that we need to separate our own issues from the newspaper sensationalism.

There's a wave of public fever being fed by media, but will that fever help to enlighten or will it help to lynch.

beware of mass psychosis.

[Lightning Rod]

no problem. i understand
but what does your crusade have to do with a pop singer who may be perfectly innocent?

i'm suggesting that we need to separate our own issues from the newspaper sensationalism.

There's a wave of public fever being fed by media, but will that fever help to enlighten or will it help to lynch.

beware of mass psychosis.

good take on this, judih

doreen has some private issues with this subject. I think they prevent some objectivity. But doreen always shoots from her heart. (one of the many reasons I love her so much)

yes, I think we are about to witness a lyncing
or else MJ will Beat It and go play golf with OJ
and people will continue to ask questions

[mtmynd]

I don't know if Michael Jackson is guilty or not and I very seriously doubt that anyone reading this KNOWS that he did what the law claims he did. We must remember that this is the second time he has been up for these charges. The prosecutor has a great deal at stake. We are living in very conservative times and the likes of MJ does not sit well with the vibe of the day.

I wouldn't be surprised or shocked if evidence was planted in regards to this whole scene. Why? Again the prosecutor has put his career on the line... one more loss of a case of this magnitude would equal the end of the career of the man, not to mention the California law officials who have been dealing with problems for a long, long time.

Does that mean Jackson is innocent? Again, I don't know. I have heard various accusations of locating child porn in his home, giving his young houseguests booze, fondling those that he slept with, etc... but nobody KNOWS but Michael and the one that supposedly was 'abused' by MJ. Think of the money that is behind this... lawyers making enormous amounts, the news media selling commercials during every word spoken during the trial, the books that will be written. Why isn't Bosco Grittle (an alias) in the news for child abuse? Because nobody gives a rat's ass about Bosco Grittle.

Could it be, truly, that Michael Jackson has really become Peter Pan? You may laugh, but given his life, his money, his love of children (yes, love of children sans sex) is, or certainly can be, as unique as his talent. Michael is one of the most unique human beings on the commercial stage that ever sang, danced or otherwise entertained people. I have no difficulty believing that this (possible) epitome of innocence could definitely be put before the public in this show of disgrace in order to de-elevate hhis stature, not only among the 20+ crowd, but the younger people who hold Jackson up as a loving, warm, caring, kind and even 'saintly' soul that wouldn't hurt a fly. The conservative public playground that now surrounds us is somehow threatened by a person like Jackson and his odd ways and peculiar lifestyle.

I don't KNOW if Jackson is guilty or not, but the most of what I have read on this thread seems eagar to get the constant bombardment of Michael Jackson in the press to be over with, even if it means crucifying Michael himself. It is not MJ that is on trial here as much as it is child abuse that is on the stand.

Our distant relatives, let's use the Romans or the Greeks as an example, even tho any older culture of any color or geographic location, had what is termed child abusers. We, today, have made it this far, despite the fact that the abuses happened. Our cultures, our governments, our daily commerce continues to flourish and we continue to breed the next generation. This is not to condone child abuse... but let us make sure ABUSE is existent. How many people confuse LOVE with SEX? More that you'd believe.

As it has been mentioned in this thread, pedophilia has occurred throughout history. I mentioned the Greeks and Romans - they even made statues and painted murals depicting man/boy or even naked young women (girls)...

Our current modernism does not approve of the behavior. I don't approve of pedophilia. The vast majority of people do not approve of pedophilia. We live within those laws in this day and age. If a pedophile gets caught, they know how society feels about it, and they must pay the price. But I hardly think that a bullet in the head is appropriate, when isolating them from children would be more civilized. I can't imagine shooting a beautiful blonde 24 year old female teacher for having sex with a 13-14 year old student!

But whatever the outcome of this MJ trial, I wish it would end soon, and if Michael is guilty please admit to it and stop the bullshit. If the prosecution is fudging the truth, stop the bullshit. It is all this media bullshit that is most harmful.

[Lightning Rod]

I agree with you cec

If MJ is guilty of having sex with underaged and dependent boys or girls or sheep, they should let the guys at Soledad Prison take care of him.

But you are right, we don't know. To let the current anti-sex, anti-life, hysteria and media frenzy decide this thing is madness.

Mary Kay Latornou (sp) would have been my dream teacher.